"would blow everyone away in most venues" exactly what I'm looking for 
I would try my best to make it work in the quote, they would be way better off long term in having them for sure. Only issue with Danley is if drivers die, I suppose fed exing drivers shouldn't be too much of a problem and I would be driving them with less than spec, and over spec limiting protection anyway.
If those clones are good then it may be an option, Australian support/parts is a good thing to have, also he probably has sourced the most reliable manufacturer.
Yep, was looking at a pair of SH96HO, if not then multiple smaller ones yet that defeats the purpose of point source a bit.
I would try my best to make it work in the quote, they would be way better off long term in having them for sure. Only issue with Danley is if drivers die, I suppose fed exing drivers shouldn't be too much of a problem and I would be driving them with less than spec, and over spec limiting protection anyway. If those clones are good then it may be an option, Australian support/parts is a good thing to have, also he probably has sourced the most reliable manufacturer.
Yep, was looking at a pair of SH96HO, if not then multiple smaller ones yet that defeats the purpose of point source a bit.
Just depends how the place is configured is all.(walls) I am sure if anything went wrong with a driver Danley, or dealer, will just mail you a replacement speaker. If it wasnt for such a high overhead to start with I would be selling their products. They have been great to talk to over the years and always there to help.
I looked at trying to sell to the commercial cinema crowd but realized there is to much I dont know right now to take this on with a full head of steam. Either way Danley I love Danleys but there are other cheaper options also.
I was going to try and build a SH96 clone but wanting something that was not so wide. The SH96HO is as big as my TH builds so thats why I liked the size of the SH64.
Would blow away in most venues is a highly calculated very accurate estimate. Well not really but the shear amount of volume that can be achieved by just using the SM80's and TH412 would be awesome. That would be my setup and suggestion. But I dont know anything about the place so you would be more informed.
When are you sitting down with the owner or manager? What music do you DJ? What software do you use?
Getting ready to buy a Vestax VCI380 to start off with and Serato DJ. But this will all be new to me so I wont be uploading any mixes to my soundcloud page.
I looked at trying to sell to the commercial cinema crowd but realized there is to much I dont know right now to take this on with a full head of steam. Either way Danley I love Danleys but there are other cheaper options also.
I was going to try and build a SH96 clone but wanting something that was not so wide. The SH96HO is as big as my TH builds so thats why I liked the size of the SH64.
Would blow away in most venues is a highly calculated very accurate estimate.
Well not really but the shear amount of volume that can be achieved by just using the SM80's and TH412 would be awesome. That would be my setup and suggestion. But I dont know anything about the place so you would be more informed.When are you sitting down with the owner or manager? What music do you DJ? What software do you use?
Getting ready to buy a Vestax VCI380 to start off with and Serato DJ. But this will all be new to me so I wont be uploading any mixes to my soundcloud page.
The venue is generally fairly round in shape with a slope from the stage to rear and not many significant obstructions which is good. Wider coverage I think would be better for this situation.
What are the cheaper options you mention?
I will be having the meeting this Friday.
I don't really use software, but they do have a nightlife pc here that you can use to look up stuff you don't have. I'm currently just using a pair of CDJ2000's and a DJM800. Since the venue is pretty much the only club in town, I'm stuck with playing anything commercial and usually its all older music since it seams to work better. Personally I love deep/tech house as well as a few other genres, I would love to DJ that but I consider my job a job and that means playing to the crowd and keeping the capacity as high as possible. Sometimes earlier on in the night I can get away with a bit more lounge type house but that's rare.
As for your setup, It depends on what genre's your into and what kind of DJ you want to be. If you are into HipHop/RnB and want to scratch get vinyl/big platters and Serato. If you are more into the 4-4 EDM House stuff then go digital controller/CD with Traktor and get a decent mixer (FX wise). There is also a lot of decent DJ gear available second hand ie CDJ350's could be way better than a controller. I would use Traktor out of the software choices but I generally stick to hardware if available. If your really into software and 4-4 EDM then I think you should eventually aim to using Ableton live.
Keep in mind that from what I have come across, the industry club standard is still CDJ's or Technics TT's and not controller based (although the latest mixers can hook straight into the software).
If you want to discuss it more feel free to PM me, I've got at least ten years experience in the game.
What are the cheaper options you mention?
I will be having the meeting this Friday.
I don't really use software, but they do have a nightlife pc here that you can use to look up stuff you don't have. I'm currently just using a pair of CDJ2000's and a DJM800. Since the venue is pretty much the only club in town, I'm stuck with playing anything commercial and usually its all older music since it seams to work better. Personally I love deep/tech house as well as a few other genres, I would love to DJ that but I consider my job a job and that means playing to the crowd and keeping the capacity as high as possible. Sometimes earlier on in the night I can get away with a bit more lounge type house but that's rare.
As for your setup, It depends on what genre's your into and what kind of DJ you want to be. If you are into HipHop/RnB and want to scratch get vinyl/big platters and Serato. If you are more into the 4-4 EDM House stuff then go digital controller/CD with Traktor and get a decent mixer (FX wise). There is also a lot of decent DJ gear available second hand ie CDJ350's could be way better than a controller. I would use Traktor out of the software choices but I generally stick to hardware if available. If your really into software and 4-4 EDM then I think you should eventually aim to using Ableton live.
Keep in mind that from what I have come across, the industry club standard is still CDJ's or Technics TT's and not controller based (although the latest mixers can hook straight into the software).
If you want to discuss it more feel free to PM me, I've got at least ten years experience in the game.
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DSL has point source options to fit most any venue, but if the budget is not there, makes no difference.
Without venue specifics I have no opinion whether a line array or other type of array is more appropriate, just can't think of any venue I have ever been to that eight 90 degree cabinets per side would be the right choice.
Since it appears that the venue is playback only, there are more configuration options than one featuring live entertainment.
Art
Fair enough, I guess I'm too used to the idea of adding more boxes. The current system has a few wide dispersion horns next to each other (but not arrayed) and when they have a BIG gig on the hire company comes in and replaces them with at least 8 dual 15" srx boxes per side. Mind you, I know the hire company is set in their very ancient ways.
I might take some pictures, do some measurements and maybe even draw up some plans for the venue and share them.
I might take some pictures, do some measurements and maybe even draw up some plans for the venue and share them.
At a guess I would say 30m wide, though now that i think about it, it could be a possibility to fit all the subs under the stage and run mono.
Good news, the meeting went well. Got asked to do their other smaller indoor venue as well for a total budget of around 100k. However this includes lighting and all stage gear for doing bands as well so I'm not sure if it is realistic. The other smaller venue should only take off 15k of the budget as its just an upgrade. I have tried emailing Danley a few times and no response, Krix also haven't got back to me but I will keep chasing things up.
"There is a guy in Australia who has the clones and I believe gives them a short warranty also. Will look for his site. ..Will also try and find the Danley guys email. I think SH96's and a few other types would blow everyone away in most venues."
Any progress on this?
Some quick phone snaps while i was in the neighborhood. I didn't have a tape to measure anything at the time though.
The dancefloor and stage is sort of in a pit.
Good news, the meeting went well. Got asked to do their other smaller indoor venue as well for a total budget of around 100k. However this includes lighting and all stage gear for doing bands as well so I'm not sure if it is realistic. The other smaller venue should only take off 15k of the budget as its just an upgrade. I have tried emailing Danley a few times and no response, Krix also haven't got back to me but I will keep chasing things up.
"There is a guy in Australia who has the clones and I believe gives them a short warranty also. Will look for his site. ..Will also try and find the Danley guys email. I think SH96's and a few other types would blow everyone away in most venues."
Any progress on this?
Some quick phone snaps while i was in the neighborhood. I didn't have a tape to measure anything at the time though.
The dancefloor and stage is sort of in a pit.
WOW makes me want to start building TH's for this place. Did I mention I enjoy building horns.
And no I didnt look anymore at the places I mentioned above. But I will look now. I was waiting to hear back from you to see how things went before I explored more.
I couldnt find the amp guy yet and Steve at wavesoup dot com dot au is who you can email for DSL.
I never stayed in touch with him after he seemed to busy to ever return my emails. I always chatted with Scott from DSL about anything DSL.
And no I didnt look anymore at the places I mentioned above. But I will look now. I was waiting to hear back from you to see how things went before I explored more.
I couldnt find the amp guy yet and Steve at wavesoup dot com dot au is who you can email for DSL.
I never stayed in touch with him after he seemed to busy to ever return my emails. I always chatted with Scott from DSL about anything DSL.
I have emailed steve and hopefully will get a response. Apart from the tops I still need to work out the best driver/supplier for the othorn. I am hoping to keep the cost lower than 1700 each in all parts and cabinet maker help when building eight of them. Which reminds me I still need to get the proper plans and Cad files for the othorn!
As for mono subs, I checked again and it could be possible to get water damage if setup in the pit so I think I would prefer L/R in big weatherproof stacks. In the pic's they just have loose speakers with a bit of canvas loosely draped only over the front, crazy!
As for mono subs, I checked again and it could be possible to get water damage if setup in the pit so I think I would prefer L/R in big weatherproof stacks. In the pic's they just have loose speakers with a bit of canvas loosely draped only over the front, crazy!
Well you can buy the remaining 21's I told you about for quite a savings to yourself. Other than that there are quite a few online retailers to go from. Beachaudio on Ebay tends to be pretty cheap.
My subs have gotten rained on quite a bit but I did wipe them down when I could. Never had a problem with them. They are marine ply and I coated them with Duratex. I keep simulating the 6fold verse the Othorn myself. Both are quite nice but Ricci has done more measurements on his design so that may be the best option for you.
Othorns equiped with TC 5100's would be even nicer for more money of coarse. I myself am probably going to build the TH18's and use 18 Sound 2400's. If I really needed double the spl I would buy the 18 Sound 9601. Other than that woofer there is not really a better value woofer depending on what you get them for. Of coarse this is disregarding the 21's I found for 550 each.
My subs have gotten rained on quite a bit but I did wipe them down when I could. Never had a problem with them. They are marine ply and I coated them with Duratex. I keep simulating the 6fold verse the Othorn myself. Both are quite nice but Ricci has done more measurements on his design so that may be the best option for you.
Othorns equiped with TC 5100's would be even nicer for more money of coarse. I myself am probably going to build the TH18's and use 18 Sound 2400's. If I really needed double the spl I would buy the 18 Sound 9601. Other than that woofer there is not really a better value woofer depending on what you get them for. Of coarse this is disregarding the 21's I found for 550 each.
So.... I have middle-age bad hearing. And, I just returned from Barbados where music of extreme simplicity is played everywhere at levels of bass thumping that range between get-a-headache and can't-hear-a-thing-said. And played on gear that emphasizes not-so-low bass thumping (which would be abominable in a home system).
So the real question I have been pondering - and which I wish others making such venues would ponder - is this. Can the entertainment value of such sound systems be maintained while also not playing loud-and-awful thumping bass that interferes with hearing talk?
I am asking the DIY forum this question in all sincerity... how would we create a sound performance that works for me as well as the other folks? For example, what would it sound like if the system had a smooth (non-thumping) bass? Would dancers like it?
Ben
So the real question I have been pondering - and which I wish others making such venues would ponder - is this. Can the entertainment value of such sound systems be maintained while also not playing loud-and-awful thumping bass that interferes with hearing talk?
I am asking the DIY forum this question in all sincerity... how would we create a sound performance that works for me as well as the other folks? For example, what would it sound like if the system had a smooth (non-thumping) bass? Would dancers like it?
Ben
Ben,
Loud bass has become more ubiquitous as it has become easily available for low cost.
The old saying "if it is too loud, you are too old" unfortunately has some truth to it, as we age, most people loose some hearing, making it impossible to hear conversation in loud environments.
Regardless of how smooth the sound system is, dance music is mixed with heavy (thumping) kick drum and bass, and it is common practice for subs to have another 10 dB or more low "haystack" boost.
Dancers like to feel the beat, there are some clubs that concentrate the level on the dance floor, making conversation easier away from that area, but open air the only way to get away from the loud bass is through cardioid or end fire rear cancellation.
The cancellation with cardioid or end fire is behind the array, which would be an unlikely place for seating, so the only real solution is staying away from places that are too loud for your taste.
The venue Reminence will be installing sound in will definitely be too loud for me in 2014, though when I last was in Perth in 1996 I would have hung out there for a while if it had been open.
Art
If you have budget to do the small venue, buy as many of those "for sale" 21s as you can with whatever your profits are. It will pay off in the future when you move over to the big venue.
congrats on sticking up for your budget. sucks they piled a whole bunch of other stuff on your head. If you have to pay a cabinet maker to do the dirty work for you, 1700 may be a bit optimistic (depending on the price of wood you come by). Even here in the states, the "retail cost" of parts/driver/finish/wood is about 1k, (with BB at $42 a sheet for 3/4)
congrats on sticking up for your budget. sucks they piled a whole bunch of other stuff on your head. If you have to pay a cabinet maker to do the dirty work for you, 1700 may be a bit optimistic (depending on the price of wood you come by). Even here in the states, the "retail cost" of parts/driver/finish/wood is about 1k, (with BB at $42 a sheet for 3/4)
1. You know the old joke about the cop who says, "If you want to smoke here, you need to put out your cigarette or go elsewhere."
2. Those folks enjoying the thumping will be complaining about their hearing a lot younger than me.
3. If you've been to the Caribbean, you know you can't escape the thumping except when scuba diving (but then you'll get it on the boat).
4. weltersys has provided certain kernels of solutions. Put the beat into the floor. Create areas for people who converse by designing null zones. What about using speakers with less one-note thump or is the whole system of recording and reproducing geared to certain one-note emphasis?
More ideas?
Ben
2. Those folks enjoying the thumping will be complaining about their hearing a lot younger than me.
3. If you've been to the Caribbean, you know you can't escape the thumping except when scuba diving (but then you'll get it on the boat).
4. weltersys has provided certain kernels of solutions. Put the beat into the floor. Create areas for people who converse by designing null zones. What about using speakers with less one-note thump or is the whole system of recording and reproducing geared to certain one-note emphasis?
More ideas?
Ben
If those are JBL SRX 728 subs in the pictures, the stage is 20-24 feet wide, about 6-7.5 meters.
If the stage is 30m wide, the subs are 4.3 meters wide (14 feet) instead of the 1.13 meters (44 inches) the SRX 728 are.
I saw some pool (billiard) tables around 4 meters long in Australia, but never saw any 4 meter subs
.Better bring a tape measure along when sussing out venues till you develop some size perspective
.Art
If those are JBL SRX 728 subs in the pictures, the stage is 20-24 feet wide, about 6-7.5 meters.
If the stage is 30m wide, the subs are 4.3 meters wide (14 feet) instead of the 1.13 meters (44 inches) the SRX 728 are.
I saw some pool (billiard) tables around 4 meters long in Australia, but never saw any 4 meter subs
Better bring a tape measure along when sussing out venues till you develop some size perspective
Art
My thoughts exactly art.... I was like... wow, thats the smallest 30meters I've ever seen in my life
My estimations are probably way off haha. I will make some real measurements
Bentoronto, Im not much a fan of the chest thumping bass myself (80-250hz) So I will probably have at least one preset in the processor that doesnt emphasise that high bass. Also we do have some pretty silly noise restrictions for the venue so I may scoop out some upper mids which would make talking easyer. I love my bass but only really the very low stuff and as I DJ as well I am mindfull of SPL levels that would cause my ears to ring and usually apply this to the audience too. I have also heard that the clearer th sound is (quality) the easyer it is for you to talk over!
As for the budget, the manager has been comparing it to another venue (120k install) half the size, indoor and only one so I pointed that its way unrealistic in the last email.
Steve actually replied on Australia day! Nearly everyone else hasn't. Il go chase them other driver options down tomorrow. Yep, definately a smart idea to buy up the 21's though.
Bentoronto, Im not much a fan of the chest thumping bass myself (80-250hz) So I will probably have at least one preset in the processor that doesnt emphasise that high bass. Also we do have some pretty silly noise restrictions for the venue so I may scoop out some upper mids which would make talking easyer. I love my bass but only really the very low stuff and as I DJ as well I am mindfull of SPL levels that would cause my ears to ring and usually apply this to the audience too. I have also heard that the clearer th sound is (quality) the easyer it is for you to talk over!
As for the budget, the manager has been comparing it to another venue (120k install) half the size, indoor and only one so I pointed that its way unrealistic in the last email.
Steve actually replied on Australia day! Nearly everyone else hasn't. Il go chase them other driver options down tomorrow. Yep, definately a smart idea to buy up the 21's though.
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