I currently have a good possibility of installing a system for an outdoor nightclub and have been reading a whole bunch on here and elsewhere about what subs to build or buy. The venue is of decent size and has a capacity of 900ppl. If I build the subs, the size isn't much of a problem due to being an install but they would need to be fairly simple and use drivers obtainable in Aus.
I have been looking at the Othorn, Gjallarhorn, keystone, th-18 and others.
The Othorn looks best so far as its simple and has the right freq response bandwidth and output. ATM i can get the 18NW100 drivers for it at a decent price but still looking for alternatives. I'm thinking of running at least 4 per side with 6-8 ps15 Nexo clones per side as tops.
The other option was to buy some ready built bob audio bs1000 bandpass boxes as their fairly cheap and high output. They save me the hassle of building and sourcing parts but they don't go as low as I would like being -10db at 35hz. JDs Sound and Lighting. Bob Audio BS1000 dual 18in 1400W band pass design subwoofer
I'm pretty sure the Othorn is the way to go but before i draw up quotes I thought I would ask if you think you think this is the right decision?
I have been looking at the Othorn, Gjallarhorn, keystone, th-18 and others.
The Othorn looks best so far as its simple and has the right freq response bandwidth and output. ATM i can get the 18NW100 drivers for it at a decent price but still looking for alternatives. I'm thinking of running at least 4 per side with 6-8 ps15 Nexo clones per side as tops.
The other option was to buy some ready built bob audio bs1000 bandpass boxes as their fairly cheap and high output. They save me the hassle of building and sourcing parts but they don't go as low as I would like being -10db at 35hz. JDs Sound and Lighting. Bob Audio BS1000 dual 18in 1400W band pass design subwoofer
I'm pretty sure the Othorn is the way to go but before i draw up quotes I thought I would ask if you think you think this is the right decision?
I'd toss the gjallerhorn out right away. first off you dont need sub 25 hz response for music, basically ever, and its performance above 80 (where most of the kick content is) is wonky.
The Othorn with the 18nw100 is basically about 5 db down in max output (and a couple hz higher) than the premium driver the 21sw152 (18nw100 takes 70 volts @8 ohm for xmax, 21sw152 takes 90v @4 ohm for xmax, both post filtering).
If you can get the 18sw115, 18tbw100, or 18sw100, or 21sw152 I would wholeheartedly recommend spending the extra cash on them. I've attached a picture comparing the th18 and the othorn loaded with the 18nw100 (which reaches xmax at 70 v iinto 8 ohms, about 600 watts), and the 21sw152 4 ohm loaded othorn (reaches xmax at 90 volts into 4 ohms, about 2000 watts), and the 18sw115 4 ohm loaded TH18 (also reaches xmax at 90v/2000w) (keystone will have fairly similar response characteristics, much easier build and a bit more output above 60hz due to mouth response shaping).
As you can see the "premium" drivers offer about 5 db in output across the board when compare to the nlw100 (greater xmax). THis basically means you can get away with half as many boxes. Granted, you WILL need beefier amps, but since there are half as many boxes... it basically evens out.
I'd personally recommend the Keystone for you, as its the easiest build. Not to diminish your passion forthis but it seems like you dont have very much build experience under your belt. The Othorn is a tough box to build (due to number of panels), as is the TH18.
For 900 outdoors, I'd like at least 6 of the premium driver boxes. Honestly I'd prefer 8 to 12. for the NLW I'd want 16 lol, but this number is largely based on the music content *I* would be putting through them. If this is a rock club, even 8 NLW boxes might cut it, but I would go keystone/th18.
How wide is the stage that you plan to run "4 per side at"? if less than about 50 to 60 feet wide, it may be a good idea to centercluster and form a curved array with delay.
The Othorn with the 18nw100 is basically about 5 db down in max output (and a couple hz higher) than the premium driver the 21sw152 (18nw100 takes 70 volts @8 ohm for xmax, 21sw152 takes 90v @4 ohm for xmax, both post filtering).
If you can get the 18sw115, 18tbw100, or 18sw100, or 21sw152 I would wholeheartedly recommend spending the extra cash on them. I've attached a picture comparing the th18 and the othorn loaded with the 18nw100 (which reaches xmax at 70 v iinto 8 ohms, about 600 watts), and the 21sw152 4 ohm loaded othorn (reaches xmax at 90 volts into 4 ohms, about 2000 watts), and the 18sw115 4 ohm loaded TH18 (also reaches xmax at 90v/2000w) (keystone will have fairly similar response characteristics, much easier build and a bit more output above 60hz due to mouth response shaping).
As you can see the "premium" drivers offer about 5 db in output across the board when compare to the nlw100 (greater xmax). THis basically means you can get away with half as many boxes. Granted, you WILL need beefier amps, but since there are half as many boxes... it basically evens out.
I'd personally recommend the Keystone for you, as its the easiest build. Not to diminish your passion forthis but it seems like you dont have very much build experience under your belt. The Othorn is a tough box to build (due to number of panels), as is the TH18.
For 900 outdoors, I'd like at least 6 of the premium driver boxes. Honestly I'd prefer 8 to 12. for the NLW I'd want 16 lol, but this number is largely based on the music content *I* would be putting through them. If this is a rock club, even 8 NLW boxes might cut it, but I would go keystone/th18.
How wide is the stage that you plan to run "4 per side at"? if less than about 50 to 60 feet wide, it may be a good idea to centercluster and form a curved array with delay.
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wooops. well, in all of the above posts I was referencing the BC 18nw100
sorry bout that
B&C Speakers
sorry bout that
B&C Speakers
When will this install take place?
Do you ever venture to Adelaide?
And I know you saw the price of the 21"SW150.
I am looking at building the TH18 and the 6fold possibly. I really like the SPL I can achieve out of the TH18 and 18 Sounds 9601. I am still thinking about the Othorn also with 9601, but in saying that the 6fold spears to go slightly lower than the Othorn. All using the 9601. But since finding out about the SW150 price I am not sure what I want to do. depends what I hear back on the price of the 9601.
Do you ever venture to Adelaide?
And I know you saw the price of the 21"SW150.
I am looking at building the TH18 and the 6fold possibly. I really like the SPL I can achieve out of the TH18 and 18 Sounds 9601. I am still thinking about the Othorn also with 9601, but in saying that the 6fold spears to go slightly lower than the Othorn. All using the 9601. But since finding out about the SW150 price I am not sure what I want to do. depends what I hear back on the price of the 9601.
I think that using 6-8 boxes per side with dispersion like the Nexo PS15 would not be a good decision, unless massive comb filtering is also part of what you want to provide in your quote.
If size, driver cost and build time is not a limiting factor, go with the Othorn.
Seeing as I frequently cover 1000+ (older) people with a pair of Keystones, I think eight of any of the subs you are considering loaded with premium drivers would be more than adequate for blurred vision without requiring any alcohol
. Art
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Yeah i was concerned about comb filtering but I like the nexo sound. If i could easily import or buy locally I would look into a danley synergy haha. I kinda wanted to avoid any line array type idea for the tops so im not sure what else is available other than 15 or dual 15 boxes(not too keen on building tops as well). Power shouldn't be a problem as I will probably be throwing LG clones at this (with a few spare). I will be getting the wood cut up for me and have a cabinet maker friend also help me, I have build tome ss15's and HT tqwt subs so far. Somehow I thought the keystone was a more difficult build!
Yes your right about the drivers not being ideal, trying to source cheapish drivers here can be a PITA and I'm still looking for the better ones.
Yes your right about the drivers not being ideal, trying to source cheapish drivers here can be a PITA and I'm still looking for the better ones.
the keystone has a total of 3 internal panels... the othorn has 5 and considerably more bracing reqs
all I was trying to point out was that basically you'll need 2 nw100s per premium driver (be it 18sw115s or 21sw152s), so unless the nw100s are less than half the price (considering your wood cost, and choice of finish I would say SIGNIFICANTLY less than half) then you should not go with them.
chrapladm has sourced the 8 ohm 21sw152s in AUS for 550. This is less than we can get them (wholesale) in the US. They could likely take a bridged LG clone (2 per clone for 4 ohm load), although you still need to peak limit accordingly. If 550 is cheaper than you can get the 18sw115 for, then you should get those, although the othorn will take more wood (more cost)
all I was trying to point out was that basically you'll need 2 nw100s per premium driver (be it 18sw115s or 21sw152s), so unless the nw100s are less than half the price (considering your wood cost, and choice of finish I would say SIGNIFICANTLY less than half) then you should not go with them.
chrapladm has sourced the 8 ohm 21sw152s in AUS for 550. This is less than we can get them (wholesale) in the US. They could likely take a bridged LG clone (2 per clone for 4 ohm load), although you still need to peak limit accordingly. If 550 is cheaper than you can get the 18sw115 for, then you should get those, although the othorn will take more wood (more cost)
Thanks, yes after seeing that post about the driver on the PAL thread I knew it would be a much better option. I was thinking of running 10000q's with one channel for each sub, sure it would be under powering them but it should be very safe from blowing them and with 8-10 Othorns I doubt it would be a problem.
The whole idea behind this install was to have an awesome LF setup that could give me a bit of a name (in this small town) whilst also being way cheaper (hence clones) than they currently have (old SRX/LG system ~$100k). I have bugeted $50k for the sound setup. I figured there's not many big low tuned subs commercially in/for nightclubs around here so building would give the system a fairly big edge over the usual BR boxes.
The whole idea behind this install was to have an awesome LF setup that could give me a bit of a name (in this small town) whilst also being way cheaper (hence clones) than they currently have (old SRX/LG system ~$100k). I have bugeted $50k for the sound setup. I figured there's not many big low tuned subs commercially in/for nightclubs around here so building would give the system a fairly big edge over the usual BR boxes.
That is exactly the situation I want, loads of headroom and wow factor of low freq, high quality, high output bass.
Or you could bridge and have 2 channels that do 5k at 4 ohms (2.5k per 21sw152) vs only giving them 1300 per driver (8 ohm spec).
A clipped amp can still burn a coil with only 1300 per driver (hell a straight sine could likely burn a coil at 1300 per driver)
I'd spec a couple extra clones in there... isnt it like 100 degrees there right now or soemthing... dont want a failure to ruin a day.
If they currently have LGs, why not keep the amps?
the keystone compares well to the SRX728, with very similar sensitivity (more upper end on the keystone) With the nw100, I expect it would compare similarly (both have 9 mm xmax) in max output. With the 18sw115, the keystone will have a lot more to give (as much as 4 to 6 db)
A clipped amp can still burn a coil with only 1300 per driver (hell a straight sine could likely burn a coil at 1300 per driver)
I'd spec a couple extra clones in there... isnt it like 100 degrees there right now or soemthing... dont want a failure to ruin a day.
If they currently have LGs, why not keep the amps?
the keystone compares well to the SRX728, with very similar sensitivity (more upper end on the keystone) With the nw100, I expect it would compare similarly (both have 9 mm xmax) in max output. With the 18sw115, the keystone will have a lot more to give (as much as 4 to 6 db)
yes, the othorn specs 4 ohm drivers, however the cheap 21sw152s as found by chrad are 8 ohm (you CAN use 8 ohm, it just takes about 130 volts to reach xmax, which is a lot of power. and the response is slightly peakier in the sim).
theres nothing wrong with free spl. Its more sensitive than the srx 728 everywhere above 33hz, if you dont like the 80hz bump, eq it out, or cross lower.
theres nothing wrong with free spl. Its more sensitive than the srx 728 everywhere above 33hz, if you dont like the 80hz bump, eq it out, or cross lower.
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Wow they have LG's already ? Which ones?
I think clones are great for home use. But dependable amps for clubs....... I would go with something else.
These are what I have found in the past few months:
BC 18SW115 $670usd roughly
BC 21SW150 $550usd
RCF 18CX451 $690usd
18 Sound 18LW2400 $330aud
Rough estimates in Usd
Still waiting on prices for the 18 Sound 18NLW9600.
Also there is a dealer here in Australia who has the Danley's. He is in Sydney. I thought about bringing them in myself but dont have the $30k of extra money for a small selection of speakers to show. So that ideas out the window. Chances are also that the dealer who does have them will charge something crazy for them compared to their retail price.
Tat is why I am going to attempt to build my own version of a dual 15 SH50(60x40 though)
I think clones are great for home use. But dependable amps for clubs....... I would go with something else.
These are what I have found in the past few months:
BC 18SW115 $670usd roughly
BC 21SW150 $550usd
RCF 18CX451 $690usd
18 Sound 18LW2400 $330aud
Rough estimates in Usd
Still waiting on prices for the 18 Sound 18NLW9600.
Also there is a dealer here in Australia who has the Danley's. He is in Sydney. I thought about bringing them in myself but dont have the $30k of extra money for a small selection of speakers to show. So that ideas out the window. Chances are also that the dealer who does have them will charge something crazy for them compared to their retail price.
Tat is why I am going to attempt to build my own version of a dual 15 SH50(60x40 though)
The 150 was replaced by the 152.
B&C Speakers
I will call the supplier now. He told me 8ohms are the ones they have. I dont see 8ohm either on the BC site.
Called them:
Ok so they have 150's and 152's. They are 4ohm and 8ohm combination. SO they have 3 152 4ohm drivers left and 10 150 4ohm. Shipping to Perth for four drivers is 175aud roughly.
B&C Speakers
I will call the supplier now. He told me 8ohms are the ones they have. I dont see 8ohm either on the BC site.
Called them:
Ok so they have 150's and 152's. They are 4ohm and 8ohm combination. SO they have 3 152 4ohm drivers left and 10 150 4ohm. Shipping to Perth for four drivers is 175aud roughly.
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