So let me see if I get this straight.
According to some people here if you use your own hands to build a speaker, but it was designed by someone else other than you, then you are a not DIY speaker builder. Not a DIYer.
However, if you purchase commercially build speakers then you can still qualify as a DIYer. Never mind that other people designed and manufactured it.
As long as you have pure thoughts about designing something yourself you are acceptable as a DIYer. But not those people who build something designed by others. They are not DIYers.
Doesn’t really make any sense. Sounds like a lot of hypocrisy to me.
Yeah, right, but let's think about tube amp vs solid state amp. There is always a gray zone, I guess...
See https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/time-for-new-loudspeaker-sub-forum-s.275369/#post-4349271
Personally, I've always thought that a subforum that combines high efficiency with particular interest in DSP crossovers is desirable to avoid the "horn apologetics" that inevitably arise when mixing direct radiating loudspeaker DIYers (that typically don't understand horn loading) with the horn loaded crowd. Good horn loading typically requires much more acoustics knowledge to provide a good result than those that merely mount direct radiating drivers on flat baffles with direct radiating reflex or acoustic suspension bass boxes.
The effects of today's well designed horns on the transfer function of the loudspeaker also require EQ, implying that DSP crossovers naturally co-exist with horn loading. Even digital delay/multi-amping is a natural requirement of horn loading--assuming you're talking about multiple aperture horn-loaded loudspeakers. Controlled directivity horns/drivers require EQ to obtain flat SPL response on-axis/off-axis.
The best sounding loudspeakers tend to maximize their minimum phase response--minimizing their all-pass characteristics--which means that phase response is flattened if the SPL response is flattened. Those two subjects go together in practice, i.e., horns and DSP.
Chris
Personally, I've always thought that a subforum that combines high efficiency with particular interest in DSP crossovers is desirable to avoid the "horn apologetics" that inevitably arise when mixing direct radiating loudspeaker DIYers (that typically don't understand horn loading) with the horn loaded crowd. Good horn loading typically requires much more acoustics knowledge to provide a good result than those that merely mount direct radiating drivers on flat baffles with direct radiating reflex or acoustic suspension bass boxes.
The effects of today's well designed horns on the transfer function of the loudspeaker also require EQ, implying that DSP crossovers naturally co-exist with horn loading. Even digital delay/multi-amping is a natural requirement of horn loading--assuming you're talking about multiple aperture horn-loaded loudspeakers. Controlled directivity horns/drivers require EQ to obtain flat SPL response on-axis/off-axis.
The best sounding loudspeakers tend to maximize their minimum phase response--minimizing their all-pass characteristics--which means that phase response is flattened if the SPL response is flattened. Those two subjects go together in practice, i.e., horns and DSP.
Chris
Yes and the midwoofer also has a lot of say in how the whole speaker sounds.
classicanfan said:
I guess that is because these are leading firms with a lot of knowledge in sound engineering and acoustics accumulated over decades, and we're interested in finding how (and what) techniques their commercial products use, their "effectivenesses" (sorry!), the resulting performance, advantages/disadvantages and possible improvements to the same. Besides, DIY spare parts could be from any of these manufacturers, so it may be good idea to know a little about their products. Further, some flagship products could also be extremely interesting to many (eg. Klipsch Jubilee or JBL M2).
mark100 said:
I agree with that, looks like you're being reminded of the "wrong road" thread.
hifijim said:
Unfortunately, even then, there're people using horns on cone drivers and (a small portion) who do not use horns on their compression drivers !
cask05 said:
Oh ! yes, I'm currently D'ing IY a processor, before getting into the loudspeaker part of it, as I strongly felt that to be a necessity.
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A bullet tweeter is almost as much of a horn as some of the waveguides we now see. Where do you draw that line?
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I don’t feel that some strict definition is necessary. Several of the existing forums have ‘fuzzy edges’ to them. Sure, some folk will argue, but that’s a common sport around here anyway. After a bit of “smart a.r.s.e. comments” and a need to show off by categorizing all the exceptions, things would settle down to the point that people who want to read and converse about horns would know where to go for it. At present it sometimes seems that there are other forums to go look at that are focussed more on horn speakers and we are not attracting some of these knowledgeable folk over to here because we don’t appear to cater well to their interests.
By the way, an Open Baffle forum wouldn’t be such a bad idea either.
Anyhow, I’m glad that my question attracted some interest from those a lot more knowledgeable than I.
By the way, an Open Baffle forum wouldn’t be such a bad idea either.
Anyhow, I’m glad that my question attracted some interest from those a lot more knowledgeable than I.
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A lot of DIYers choose their projects by trying to modify something they already like that already exists. These people would be lost in a forum where the barrier to entry is defining the desired performance before even knowing what that might be; that is more like work, and for a learner it's not often beneficial to anticipate the destination before it is reached. And DIY is for the most part a hobby.
To me the distinction as relevant to an internet forum is whether we want to think about a speaker as a horn (because this indicates our needs). We want to do that if we need to use the tools of a horn tradesman to achieve our goal. So if we wanted to analyze a waveguide acoustically that would fit in a horn forum, whereas if we just wanted to use a waveguide on a 2-way speaker we might not want to overcomplicate it, and that would be great for the multi-way forum. IE, if you have a given problem with a waveguide, do you go to the horn shop where the horn guys are, or do you go to the multi-way shop where everything isn't so much about horns? It depends on your needs, and in the end it will be our needs that determine whether we choose the horn forum or multi-way forum for our project.
So I guess I am pretty much agreed with Bigun here, once the distinction is made people will use either forum according to their needs and that is what will shape their roles on the forum, not so much our obsessive bickering over categories.
To me the distinction as relevant to an internet forum is whether we want to think about a speaker as a horn (because this indicates our needs). We want to do that if we need to use the tools of a horn tradesman to achieve our goal. So if we wanted to analyze a waveguide acoustically that would fit in a horn forum, whereas if we just wanted to use a waveguide on a 2-way speaker we might not want to overcomplicate it, and that would be great for the multi-way forum. IE, if you have a given problem with a waveguide, do you go to the horn shop where the horn guys are, or do you go to the multi-way shop where everything isn't so much about horns? It depends on your needs, and in the end it will be our needs that determine whether we choose the horn forum or multi-way forum for our project.
So I guess I am pretty much agreed with Bigun here, once the distinction is made people will use either forum according to their needs and that is what will shape their roles on the forum, not so much our obsessive bickering over categories.
But the distinction between high efficiency and low efficiency is much more palpable...and audible.
There is at least one existing high efficiency loudspeaker forum...whose only real issue is that nostalgia doesn't mix very well with innovation and better performance. Nostalgia should be avoided because it eventually runs off innovators.
My vote would be to encourage the sharing of more up-to-date high efficiency loudspeaker techniques, such as consistent polar coverage response while simultaneously exhibiting inaudible levels of modulation and compression distortion at reference level SPLs.
Achieving flat on-axis SPL response is comparatively trivial using DSP--as has been shown with modern powered higher performance studio monitors, JBL M2, Klipsch Jubilee (new and old versions), and the upcoming Danley Hyperion.
I think there's a trend emerging. It's probably best to get in front of it.
Chris
In the future of this forum lies tagging. After the dust of transition has settled we will move on to feature improvements, like thread tagging.
With tags, you will be able to build your own virtual sub-forum. You could have one that's about multi-amped DSP crossed horn speakers if you wanted. Or whatever subjects the tags allow.
Tagging will be a big job, so it's not going to happen right away, but it could fundamentally change to way you see the forum.
With tags, you will be able to build your own virtual sub-forum. You could have one that's about multi-amped DSP crossed horn speakers if you wanted. Or whatever subjects the tags allow.
Tagging will be a big job, so it's not going to happen right away, but it could fundamentally change to way you see the forum.
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I see the proposed sub forums as an eventual way of segregating forum users/members. Will the more knowledgeable members, those who have expertise in various system configurations, be there for the novice builder that comes here? Is the novice expected to jump into a sub forum ... full of highly technical posts (looking forward) and try to interact with the brain trust on what might be his/her ideal speaker build?
Might be more helpful to have a section for first timers/beginners to learn the fundamentals to good loudspeaker design. a place the novice can go before jumping into the shark pool(s).
Might be more helpful to have a section for first timers/beginners to learn the fundamentals to good loudspeaker design. a place the novice can go before jumping into the shark pool(s).
I've also seen this type of concern raised before--many times in fact--to argue against the creation of new subforums.
The real purpose of a for-purpose subforum (like all the other subforums here currently--and there are many) is to make it easier for all regulars and even newcomers to find threads on the subjects that they are looking for.
Those same subforums also serve the purpose of separating those not interested or otherwise conducive to a certain base set of ideas central to the subforum to remain comfortable in their own space. (A great example: separate solid state vs. tube amplifier subforums on some forums to keep the two sides happy and not arguing.)
I see a lot of those people right now--not interested in certain subjects, but willing to make a fuss/snipe at (also referred to as stealth trolling) those that do wish to seriously consider those basic ideas that's needed for the subforum they are posting to.
[This is the reason why I'm not terribly hopeful on the utility of tagging, because newcomers will probably not be willing to learn use such a system before going directly to the forum to ask questions. Their tool of choice: Google. They typically don't put the time in to learn how to use tags. I've seen this in other forums that have provided tags for a decade or more.]
I also see newcomers that post here that are discouraged by the "local experts" that think that their ideas are beneath the forum's standards (e..g., remember the little stars rating each thread here--with "Golden Raspberry Awards" that were assigned anonymously).
Many times, I've commonly seen threads created by newcomers that get hundreds of reads, but no one answers them.
So what you infer is, in my experience, largely mythology. If a newcomer comes here actually seeking knowledge, does a little more reading and searching than just using Google to find this subforum, and sincerely wishes to find answers for their questions, my experience that these people will largely receive the help they desire--even if they post in a forum that's not well suited for their questions. They usually will be redirected by other contributors there, if not the moderators themselves. This is the problem with increasing knowledge in any subject area--and accessing the knowledge needed. Novices bump into more experienced members, some willing to help, and other people--not so much.
Chris
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All horns are waveguides. Not all waveguides are horns. Some say it the other way around. A waveguide simply guides the direction with no gain whereas a horn directs and adds an acoustic gain. That's not a perfect definition but it gives the idea.
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As it pertains to "newcomers" what you say assumes that they know what they're looking for. Often they don't.
As a DIY audio website it would be very beneficial to be more instructive to a beginner than just a repository for technical information/research.
Not being able to see how additions to forum sections would actually play out down the road .. one can never go wrong giving novices guidance at the start of their diy journey.