Re: i will take it into...
What have you got picked out? You have to keep in mind that HT is a moving target and unless you get something that is specifically upgradable it will be "obsolete" soon.
Before you pick amps you need to know what speakers you are driving. Remember that loud/good is better accomplished with high efficiency speakers and small amps than with lower efficency speakers & big amps. A 95 dB speaker plays just as loud with 20 w as an 85 dB loudspeaker with 200W. And if you bi-amped that 95 dB speaker it would only take 2 5W amps to attain the same dynamics (assumming a suitable XO point is choosen.
multi-amping can actually cost less so should not be discarded on monetary basis.
Have a look at these references:
Clipping in a Bi-amped system
and poke thru some of the
links here
dave
slicemaster101 said:
What have you got picked out? You have to keep in mind that HT is a moving target and unless you get something that is specifically upgradable it will be "obsolete" soon.
Before you pick amps you need to know what speakers you are driving. Remember that loud/good is better accomplished with high efficiency speakers and small amps than with lower efficency speakers & big amps. A 95 dB speaker plays just as loud with 20 w as an 85 dB loudspeaker with 200W. And if you bi-amped that 95 dB speaker it would only take 2 5W amps to attain the same dynamics (assumming a suitable XO point is choosen.
multi-amping can actually cost less so should not be discarded on monetary basis.
Have a look at these references:
Clipping in a Bi-amped system
and poke thru some of the
links here
dave
Hi Slice,
My advice,try to stay relaxed, there are some very forceful characters around here with very strong opinions!
Having worked in the pro touring industry for a few years I will try and give you a balanced opinion on your quandry.
THX is just a standard, like measuring things in feet or meters, both work but ask NASA about the consequences of mixing them up.
Most modern pro amps are lot better sounding than they used to be say 5 years ago, but they are designed to be sold to a very sensitive price point, and as part of there spec they have to be designed to take life on the road, and this affects sound quality as the money has to be spent on robustness rather than pure sound quality.
If you want to go for pro amps, I would suggest the Hill Audio Chamalean range, discontinued for a few years so you could probably pick them up second hand from local pro sound co.s fairly cheap.
But... I run a Arcam (100w per channel) system for home theatre, and if I really crank it up I can have the neighbours 2 doors down complaining!
So... Don't give up, but please listen to the amps and compare them to alternatives first, otherwise you might make a costly mistake!
Cheers
Al
My advice,try to stay relaxed, there are some very forceful characters around here with very strong opinions!
Having worked in the pro touring industry for a few years I will try and give you a balanced opinion on your quandry.
THX is just a standard, like measuring things in feet or meters, both work but ask NASA about the consequences of mixing them up.
Most modern pro amps are lot better sounding than they used to be say 5 years ago, but they are designed to be sold to a very sensitive price point, and as part of there spec they have to be designed to take life on the road, and this affects sound quality as the money has to be spent on robustness rather than pure sound quality.
If you want to go for pro amps, I would suggest the Hill Audio Chamalean range, discontinued for a few years so you could probably pick them up second hand from local pro sound co.s fairly cheap.
But... I run a Arcam (100w per channel) system for home theatre, and if I really crank it up I can have the neighbours 2 doors down complaining!
So... Don't give up, but please listen to the amps and compare them to alternatives first, otherwise you might make a costly mistake!
Cheers
Al
Moved it to a new thread
i started a new thread on the subject.
It is too interesting to have buried on page 5 of a thread on a different subject that is just starting to get into the meat after a whack of politics :^)
dave
Bill F. said:
i started a new thread on the subject.
It is too interesting to have buried on page 5 of a thread on a different subject that is just starting to get into the meat after a whack of politics :^)
dave
here are the speakers i need to drive...
Well my speaker system will consist of 12 speakers…
The mains, centers, and rears all consist of the same number
and type of drivers.
1. 2x PEERLESS 850136 CSX 8" WOOFER
2. 2x PEERLESS 850467 HDS 6-1/2" WOOFER W/PHASE PLUG
3. 2x DAYTON 1" TITANIUM DOME TWEETER
There will be two sets of surround speakers…in other words 4 speakers over all or 2 right surround and 2 left surround speakers…
The drivers for those speakers will be…
1. 1x PEERLESS 850136 CSX 8" WOOFER
2. 1x PEERLESS 850467 HDS 6-1/2" WOOFER W/PHASE PLUG
3. 1x DAYTON 1" TITANIUM DOME TWEETER
I have not designed the enclosures yet but the will more then likely be ported enclosures…
They will all have the same crossover unit…. an Eminence 3-way crossover that crosses over at 500Hz and 5000Hz….
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The subs will be blueprint 1201 drivers…
There will be 2 drivers in each enclosure…mounted in a push push configuration.
I haven’t decided on a the crossover for it yet…. any suggestions…
That is all the info I can give you now…. if you have questions please ask them…
thanks,
Slice
Well my speaker system will consist of 12 speakers…
The mains, centers, and rears all consist of the same number
and type of drivers.
1. 2x PEERLESS 850136 CSX 8" WOOFER
2. 2x PEERLESS 850467 HDS 6-1/2" WOOFER W/PHASE PLUG
3. 2x DAYTON 1" TITANIUM DOME TWEETER
There will be two sets of surround speakers…in other words 4 speakers over all or 2 right surround and 2 left surround speakers…
The drivers for those speakers will be…
1. 1x PEERLESS 850136 CSX 8" WOOFER
2. 1x PEERLESS 850467 HDS 6-1/2" WOOFER W/PHASE PLUG
3. 1x DAYTON 1" TITANIUM DOME TWEETER
I have not designed the enclosures yet but the will more then likely be ported enclosures…
They will all have the same crossover unit…. an Eminence 3-way crossover that crosses over at 500Hz and 5000Hz….
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The subs will be blueprint 1201 drivers…
There will be 2 drivers in each enclosure…mounted in a push push configuration.
I haven’t decided on a the crossover for it yet…. any suggestions…
That is all the info I can give you now…. if you have questions please ask them…
thanks,
Slice
alternative to Crowns
Slice,
Decent-sounding, rugged amps are manufactured by Bryston, a Canadian manufacturer. Their amps tend to put out lots of power, and are know to be very reliable. I am not sure about street prices these days.
If you want to save some $$$, consider buying used. A quality amp like Bryston will last a long, long time, so buying used is a low risk proposition. Check out Ebay, or a good audio martket site at www.audiogon.com
I bought stuff there and had a positive experience.
Good luck
Slice,
Decent-sounding, rugged amps are manufactured by Bryston, a Canadian manufacturer. Their amps tend to put out lots of power, and are know to be very reliable. I am not sure about street prices these days.
If you want to save some $$$, consider buying used. A quality amp like Bryston will last a long, long time, so buying used is a low risk proposition. Check out Ebay, or a good audio martket site at www.audiogon.com
I bought stuff there and had a positive experience.
Good luck
Slice, the reason I posted that the amps were for subs is that I did a search and every site that hit was a pro studio and every one of those used the amps for lows only. There might be a reason for that. Here is a good search engine, <www.metacrawler.com> I also recommend that you go active with your xovers or build them yourself if you are going to use passive. Build your own and it is easier to tweak later. Active and you tweak while it is fired up. I have an Ashley myself.
i have not the slightest idea....
i am new to this as you know and i was wondering how do i build a crossover by my self.....
i knotice partsexpress sells parts and blank PCB but how hard is it realy? how much would it cost me to build rather then buy....
cheaper or moreexpencive...
i have been looking at highfiheaven and i found a list of good home theater amp manufactures....
ie.
sunfire
adcom
classe audio
aragon
ext.
i know sunfire is good...
so i am going to be checking those out.
what ya think?
i would love to lern to build crossovers....there is never a better time to lern...
thanks,
Slice
i am new to this as you know and i was wondering how do i build a crossover by my self.....
i knotice partsexpress sells parts and blank PCB but how hard is it realy? how much would it cost me to build rather then buy....
cheaper or moreexpencive...
i have been looking at highfiheaven and i found a list of good home theater amp manufactures....
ie.
sunfire
adcom
classe audio
aragon
ext.
i know sunfire is good...
so i am going to be checking those out.
what ya think?
i would love to lern to build crossovers....there is never a better time to lern...
thanks,
Slice
Re: i have not the slightest idea....
crossovers are easy to build, but not necessarily easy to design. That is why picking a project you can copy, where someone has already done the hard stuff is a good idea -- i have some comments coming on your driver selection coming...
Of the stuff you listed Sunfire is actually probably bottom of the heap -- but better than the pro-stuff. The adcom probably best meets your price/performance criteria.
dave
slicemaster101 said:
crossovers are easy to build, but not necessarily easy to design. That is why picking a project you can copy, where someone has already done the hard stuff is a good idea -- i have some comments coming on your driver selection coming...
Of the stuff you listed Sunfire is actually probably bottom of the heap -- but better than the pro-stuff. The adcom probably best meets your price/performance criteria.
dave
I made my new amp selection....
i found a amp that is $3,000 each and does what i want.....
it is a home theater / music power amp with good spec.....
take a look.
it is a ARAGON ARAGON PALLADIUM 1K.
they look realy nice...
i have a local dealer near me and i think i will drop by and give them a lisen...what ya think?
good...bad...
i think you guys will agree that these are the amps for me.....and if not....back to the drawing board.....
Aragon is actualy owned by KLIPSCH and they should be good.
take a look at them i think you will agree....
thanks,
Slice
i found a amp that is $3,000 each and does what i want.....
it is a home theater / music power amp with good spec.....
take a look.
it is a ARAGON ARAGON PALLADIUM 1K.
they look realy nice...
i have a local dealer near me and i think i will drop by and give them a lisen...what ya think?
good...bad...
i think you guys will agree that these are the amps for me.....and if not....back to the drawing board.....
Aragon is actualy owned by KLIPSCH and they should be good.
take a look at them i think you will agree....
thanks,
Slice
Re: is their anywhere...?
Go do a thorough read-thru of Bob Stout's Loudspeaker Drive Selection Guide. It is just choke full of useful information and links.
Proven designs (drivers & the XOs that go with them) are all over the net.
dave
slicemaster101 said:
Go do a thorough read-thru of Bob Stout's Loudspeaker Drive Selection Guide. It is just choke full of useful information and links.
Proven designs (drivers & the XOs that go with them) are all over the net.
dave
For passive crossovers this site is really helpfull in getting values and designs. <www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp> Bookmark this site as it is a very useful tool. Even if you don't use it to design and make a crossover you will find it helpful as a guide. Later someone else will need it and you will be ready to help them. And like the other David I love the " No matter where you go, there you are." After you get this together you will not be a newbie or the FNG. You will meet Mr Murphy face to face and learn something we aught to know.
****, I'm gone for a day and look what I've missed.
Slice, it is so wonderful to see you spell corrrectly! You come across as much more intelligent. You realize the impression that we get of you is formed by what you write, and how you write it.
Griff, I am surprised to find out that your are only 17, I hope you are flattered. by the name and what you say suggests an old fat guy (don't ask me why, that's just the picture in my head). I am 17 as well(for another hour, my birthday is tomorrow)
mrfeedback, you are a knowledgable and valuable member of this community (of what i have seen at least), and ......I'm done.
Planet10, I wish I was related to you
you're a good guy. Everywhere I go in this forum, there you are.
Slice, I have told you more than once about what I think of the drivers you have selected. You have chosen not to listen to me. Thats ok, but your system will suck.
And for my last word, BUY A BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buy a book on loudspeaker design. For the sake of man kind, DO IT!!!!!
Any book! I dont care!!!!
PLEASE!!
If you want to learn, learn all you can from a book, THEN come to us.
And please take my advise, I like you, I think you're a good kid. just GET A ******* BOOK!!!!
-andy
Slice, it is so wonderful to see you spell corrrectly! You come across as much more intelligent. You realize the impression that we get of you is formed by what you write, and how you write it.
Griff, I am surprised to find out that your are only 17, I hope you are flattered. by the name and what you say suggests an old fat guy (don't ask me why, that's just the picture in my head). I am 17 as well(for another hour, my birthday is tomorrow)
mrfeedback, you are a knowledgable and valuable member of this community (of what i have seen at least), and ......I'm done.
Planet10, I wish I was related to you
you're a good guy. Everywhere I go in this forum, there you are.
Slice, I have told you more than once about what I think of the drivers you have selected. You have chosen not to listen to me. Thats ok, but your system will suck.
And for my last word, BUY A BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buy a book on loudspeaker design. For the sake of man kind, DO IT!!!!!
Any book! I dont care!!!!
PLEASE!!
If you want to learn, learn all you can from a book, THEN come to us.
And please take my advise, I like you, I think you're a good kid. just GET A ******* BOOK!!!!
-andy
Re: here are the speakers i need to drive...
I'll say it again (and again, and again). You only need a pair of surrounds, a L front, a R front, a Centre (in my HT i don't have a centre -- i just make sure L&R image well-enuff to make it sound like i have a centre) and i like the idea of two subs.
I like the Peerless drivers, i have 2x8" in my woofer boxes. The HDS is also very good, but the non-phase plug one (despite the phase-plugs theoretical advantage) is smoother at the top of its range and makes a better midrange. The Dayton Ti dome sucks, and you only want one -- with two you end up with comb filtering and the highs get confused. There are a lot of good domes -- less if you just consider shielded ones. A cloth/silk dome Vifa, Morel, Seas would be way better... but i suggest you choose based on a selection criteria i will outline at the end of this post.
Now the big BUT neither of those Peerless are shielded. that is going to casue you a lot of grief unless you have an LCD or projection TV.
Again... you only need a pair. keeping the drivers the same keeps the tonal balance consistent. Put the money into better not more...
I think you have already been convinced that this is a BAD idea.
Crossover for subs should be active... there are lots of decent plate amps (a couple examples: ApexJr Senior, Adire Audio has an entire range). They all have built-in active cross-overs which you will need to switch out to use with your video processor.
Now a suggestion: Approach the speakers like this -- given that the passive XO is by far the trickiest part to design (i don't even bother sticking with active ones and simple cap Xoed tweeters), you are best to scour the internet for designs that you like. You are looking for a WMTMW or WWMTM, but given appropriate drivers the woofer to mid XO can be kept fairly simple and you can also keep your eyes out for an MTM you can use on the top (an active XO between woof & mid would make this approach dead simple). The high order XO required for the MTM is the trickiest part. Earlier i had imagined The Ariel for the MTM part, but it isn't shielded. The Audax HT speaker by Joe d'Apolitto is a better example (and from the link i gave there are 4 or 5 good pages on HT application). These use the 6.5" aerogels which are outstanding, and come with a well thot-out XO. they can be had as a complete kit from Zalytron. Others can chime in with other examples -- my speakers tend to not be quite in this niche (for starters i'd be looking at 5s instead of 6s). These could then be Xoed to a pr of (for example) Adire AV-8s. If you were doing a passive XO you would have to worry about relative sensitivity -- i didn't bother to check. An XO between 200 & 350 hz is probably realistic -- i'd tend towards lower with an active XO and higher with a passive.
So go crawling the net looking at other peoples projects. Find some you think are interesting and report back.
dave
slicemaster101 said:
I'll say it again (and again, and again). You only need a pair of surrounds, a L front, a R front, a Centre (in my HT i don't have a centre -- i just make sure L&R image well-enuff to make it sound like i have a centre) and i like the idea of two subs.
I like the Peerless drivers, i have 2x8" in my woofer boxes. The HDS is also very good, but the non-phase plug one (despite the phase-plugs theoretical advantage) is smoother at the top of its range and makes a better midrange. The Dayton Ti dome sucks, and you only want one -- with two you end up with comb filtering and the highs get confused. There are a lot of good domes -- less if you just consider shielded ones. A cloth/silk dome Vifa, Morel, Seas would be way better... but i suggest you choose based on a selection criteria i will outline at the end of this post.
Now the big BUT neither of those Peerless are shielded. that is going to casue you a lot of grief unless you have an LCD or projection TV.
Again... you only need a pair. keeping the drivers the same keeps the tonal balance consistent. Put the money into better not more...
I think you have already been convinced that this is a BAD idea.
Crossover for subs should be active... there are lots of decent plate amps (a couple examples: ApexJr Senior, Adire Audio has an entire range). They all have built-in active cross-overs which you will need to switch out to use with your video processor.
Now a suggestion: Approach the speakers like this -- given that the passive XO is by far the trickiest part to design (i don't even bother sticking with active ones and simple cap Xoed tweeters), you are best to scour the internet for designs that you like. You are looking for a WMTMW or WWMTM, but given appropriate drivers the woofer to mid XO can be kept fairly simple and you can also keep your eyes out for an MTM you can use on the top (an active XO between woof & mid would make this approach dead simple). The high order XO required for the MTM is the trickiest part. Earlier i had imagined The Ariel for the MTM part, but it isn't shielded. The Audax HT speaker by Joe d'Apolitto is a better example (and from the link i gave there are 4 or 5 good pages on HT application). These use the 6.5" aerogels which are outstanding, and come with a well thot-out XO. they can be had as a complete kit from Zalytron. Others can chime in with other examples -- my speakers tend to not be quite in this niche (for starters i'd be looking at 5s instead of 6s). These could then be Xoed to a pr of (for example) Adire AV-8s. If you were doing a passive XO you would have to worry about relative sensitivity -- i didn't bother to check. An XO between 200 & 350 hz is probably realistic -- i'd tend towards lower with an active XO and higher with a passive.
So go crawling the net looking at other peoples projects. Find some you think are interesting and report back.
dave
:k lets get started::
Bostarob I am sorry I do not recall seeing a post on why my drivers I have selected suck… I have been fighting a migraine for the past few days and have been busy with a term paper all while balancing this thread.
Ok I am open now… lets design from the ground up…
You guys seem to like the ARAGON PALLADIUM 1K amp so lets stick with that…
Here is what I want…
1. Theater like sound (very loud)
2. Good clean sound
3. Lots of speakers
I would like to have
2x mains (each driven by 400w)
2x centers (each driven by 400w)
4x surrounds (each driven by 200w)
2x rears (each driven by 400w)
2x subs (each driven by 400w)
Note: I have had experience with subs so the speakers we are going to focus on
Are the (right front, left front, center 1, center 2, surround right 1, surround right 2, surround left 1, surround left 2, rear right, and rear left.)
My design allows for 12 channels of audio… all the speakers will get their own channel of audio except the surrounds. There will be two speakers hooked up to the right surround channel and the same for the left. In other words I have 10 amplified channels of audio to work with, the other two are for the subs….
Around those specifications I would like to design these speakers from the ground up…passive crossovers, driver selection, enclosure… every thing…
Now let get going…driver selection
It will be a 3-way system because I have not had success with 2-way systems.
Lets talk drivers and crossovers.
Well lets get started…
Thanks,
Slice
k lets get started::Bostarob I am sorry I do not recall seeing a post on why my drivers I have selected suck… I have been fighting a migraine for the past few days and have been busy with a term paper all while balancing this thread.
Ok I am open now… lets design from the ground up…
You guys seem to like the ARAGON PALLADIUM 1K amp so lets stick with that…
Here is what I want…
1. Theater like sound (very loud)
2. Good clean sound
3. Lots of speakers
I would like to have
2x mains (each driven by 400w)
2x centers (each driven by 400w)
4x surrounds (each driven by 200w)
2x rears (each driven by 400w)
2x subs (each driven by 400w)
Note: I have had experience with subs so the speakers we are going to focus on
Are the (right front, left front, center 1, center 2, surround right 1, surround right 2, surround left 1, surround left 2, rear right, and rear left.)
My design allows for 12 channels of audio… all the speakers will get their own channel of audio except the surrounds. There will be two speakers hooked up to the right surround channel and the same for the left. In other words I have 10 amplified channels of audio to work with, the other two are for the subs….
Around those specifications I would like to design these speakers from the ground up…passive crossovers, driver selection, enclosure… every thing…
Now let get going…driver selection
It will be a 3-way system because I have not had success with 2-way systems.
Lets talk drivers and crossovers.
Well lets get started…
Thanks,
Slice
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