Here's a link to DD's horn system:
http://audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm
I would love to hear this...
http://audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm
I would love to hear this...
I think it is fair to say that there are fairly rational decision approaches to making better sound production (I no longer think in terms of an undefinable concept of "reproduction"). Even without grinding cost into the decision scheme. Good, I hear no objections, so far.
In the great scheme of improving production, what place has speaker cables, assuming you are speaker-cable favourable?
Or let me put it differently. How do you select components so that they kind of match in quality (or quality per dollar input)? And you then address weak links or some comparable decision strategy.
Now I happen to be of the school that thinks that a 30 year old amp is the perfect match-mate for whatever passes today for the world's greatest speaker. That was a popular educated opinion among the speaker afficionados not long ago - not sure if it is key today.
Which brings me to my real point: there are people out there with ESL speakers who think all others are just kidding themselves. There may be ESL owners who do not think that, but I have never met one. In other words, ESL people wonder why you'd get rid of your hardware-store speaker wires if you don't first get ESLs?
Footnote: there are lots of reasons not to want to own ESLs and that's fair enough to my mind. But getting better sound quality by some other means isn't one of those reasons.
In the great scheme of improving production, what place has speaker cables, assuming you are speaker-cable favourable?
Or let me put it differently. How do you select components so that they kind of match in quality (or quality per dollar input)? And you then address weak links or some comparable decision strategy.
Now I happen to be of the school that thinks that a 30 year old amp is the perfect match-mate for whatever passes today for the world's greatest speaker. That was a popular educated opinion among the speaker afficionados not long ago - not sure if it is key today.
Which brings me to my real point: there are people out there with ESL speakers who think all others are just kidding themselves. There may be ESL owners who do not think that, but I have never met one. In other words, ESL people wonder why you'd get rid of your hardware-store speaker wires if you don't first get ESLs?
Footnote: there are lots of reasons not to want to own ESLs and that's fair enough to my mind. But getting better sound quality by some other means isn't one of those reasons.
bentoronto said:
The only sensible approach seems to take a bunch of wires for a home demo and over a few days/weeks decide what makes sense in the context of your system. The less cable reviews and friend's opinions you have the better.
bentoronto said:
With all the wire in the step-ups ESL seem less sensitive to cables. Not that i care. There were 2 years in my youth wasted building ESLs which i regret more than the time spent in the army (slight exaggeration).
Sadly, no. The ceilings are too low. When we move into a new place, probably in February or March, I'll set them back up.
The DD was just experimental, it didn't go loud enough, so I ended up biamping and just using a single transformer stepup to the ESL panels. The modified and biamped M3.3s are surprisingly not embarrassed; the sound is very different, a smaller soundstage and tighter, more precise imaging, and needless to say, much more dynamic. I'll revisit DD when we move.
The DD was just experimental, it didn't go loud enough, so I ended up biamping and just using a single transformer stepup to the ESL panels. The modified and biamped M3.3s are surprisingly not embarrassed; the sound is very different, a smaller soundstage and tighter, more precise imaging, and needless to say, much more dynamic. I'll revisit DD when we move.
panomaniac said:
Hi,
I did attend the Kiron during the Paris Hi-Fi show with a couple of friends many, many years ago.
I also happen to know Mr. Hiraga and the crew of "La Maison de L'audiophile" quite well as we exchanged thoughts on designs on numerous occasions.
The Isoda cables in those days were composed of individually isolated strands of copper, aluminium and perhaps lead.
Not so sure about the latter as I recall they particularly disliked lead as a conductor.
Anyway, mainly three different metals and horns almost as tall as a house.
Nonetheless an experience I'll never forget for the rest of my life.
@SY:
Having owned various ESLs my main quibble with those is bloated imaging getting worse as volume increases.
Horns aren't perfect either but you should keep in mind that whatever odd order harmonic is present as a distortion residue is blasted at your ears.
Add to that the fact that some horn shapes will add insult to injury and add they're own set of odd order harmonics and at such high efficiency you'll can understand the Japanese preponderance for sweet even order SETs.
Ultimately I settled for reasonably efficicient (92dB/W) speaker which can provide pinpoint imaging (source permitting*) and don't rattle the house to pieces.
*It is mainly the lack of well recorded, well mastered material that made me put audio aside. The advent of digital didn't help either.....
Cheers,
I like this too.SY said:
http://www.drewdaniels.com/ww.htm
I have almost all of the parts but for the 2245's, but my AE TD15X will do 94% of the volume displacement. I thought about it, but would rather have the Unity's.SY said:
His other system also influenced some of my design ideas.
http://audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html
Re: I don't beleive cables make a difference, any input?
The Paulinator
You are one of the few that actually have tried to verify your listening impressions.
And your test fooling those fellows is really revealing
We are a few that try to tell people,
that when you claim publically you can hear differences
you better make sure your really can
Unless you can guarantee you need to attach some form of reservation.
Otherwise you may contribute to al those Audio Lies & Myths.
What will remain and be respected, in the long run,
are verified, documented and well controlled listening experiments.
Without some sort of verification, validation, any stated opinion on sound quality is not much worth,
as a general knowledge we can trust.
And will not have a lasting value for general use in audio.
As the years go by.
Doesn't even matter if some 'audio guru', like Nelson Pass or John Curl or Pavel Macura, PMA
tells some un-verified opinions on perceived sound quality.
Like any other subjective opinion we may express.
It is just as easily soon forgotten
And this is a very good thing.
Lineup
The Paulinator said:
The Paulinator
You are one of the few that actually have tried to verify your listening impressions.
And your test fooling those fellows is really revealing
We are a few that try to tell people,
that when you claim publically you can hear differences
you better make sure your really can
Unless you can guarantee you need to attach some form of reservation.
Otherwise you may contribute to al those Audio Lies & Myths.
What will remain and be respected, in the long run,
are verified, documented and well controlled listening experiments.
Without some sort of verification, validation, any stated opinion on sound quality is not much worth,
as a general knowledge we can trust.
And will not have a lasting value for general use in audio.
As the years go by.
Doesn't even matter if some 'audio guru', like Nelson Pass or John Curl or Pavel Macura, PMA
tells some un-verified opinions on perceived sound quality.
Like any other subjective opinion we may express.
It is just as easily soon forgotten
And this is a very good thing.
Lineup
Re: Re: I don't beleive cables make a difference, any input?
- I built a very sweet little EL84 triode class A PP amp in an 80's Marantz integrated chassis. The phile who heard it on my horns hated it, but liked the same amp when he heard it on the mdf proto-chassis some weeks before.
- I made some interconnects using Cu plated steel core RG6 coax, put stocking and heat shrink around them to make them look pretty. A phile who hates steel in cables has them and I believe they are still in use and said phile has waxed lyrical about their sonic qualities online.
- a tube purist recently heard my mates Red Light District amp, but I told him it was class A triode and he loved it. Pity it's pentode with a decent amount of gNFB.
- the big DHT amp that was held together by steel clipleads and very generic parts (good iron, I always use that) but wasn't detected as sounding horrible. Got quite well received.
I could give other examples too. See why I don't trust most audiophile perceptions? Every one of these (and the others) heard what they thought they were hearing or what they saw, not what was actually there.
I'm sure none of them are aware of the 'trick' and I have no need to embarrass them or reveal identities. After catching myself out a few times like the Paulinator I wanted to see how it worked for others.
I've posted about doing this in the past on more than one occasion.lineup said:
And your test fooling those fellows is really revealing
- I built a very sweet little EL84 triode class A PP amp in an 80's Marantz integrated chassis. The phile who heard it on my horns hated it, but liked the same amp when he heard it on the mdf proto-chassis some weeks before.
- I made some interconnects using Cu plated steel core RG6 coax, put stocking and heat shrink around them to make them look pretty. A phile who hates steel in cables has them and I believe they are still in use and said phile has waxed lyrical about their sonic qualities online.
- a tube purist recently heard my mates Red Light District amp, but I told him it was class A triode and he loved it. Pity it's pentode with a decent amount of gNFB.
- the big DHT amp that was held together by steel clipleads and very generic parts (good iron, I always use that) but wasn't detected as sounding horrible. Got quite well received.
I could give other examples too. See why I don't trust most audiophile perceptions? Every one of these (and the others) heard what they thought they were hearing or what they saw, not what was actually there.
I'm sure none of them are aware of the 'trick' and I have no need to embarrass them or reveal identities. After catching myself out a few times like the Paulinator I wanted to see how it worked for others.
Brett
Yes, even if we do not like to think so, our impressions are often not to trust.
Anybody with basic knowledge of the human mind & perception will understand this.
We have the saying: you see what you want to see
(beauty is in the eye of the beholder)
Same goes often with our hearing: you hear what you want to hear
It is when there are very small differences or no differences at all,
our brain can & often will start to add subjective information.
Your brain, if left with a choice, is inclined try to confirm your expectations.
You have done a pre-judge.
Remember, some times, no doubt, people will be right, when they tell they can hear.
But even if they can, without some sort of verification, confirmation, such a statement is of no greater and lasting value.
As it may just as well be a case of hear what you want to hear.
Yes, even if we do not like to think so, our impressions are often not to trust.
Anybody with basic knowledge of the human mind & perception will understand this.
We have the saying: you see what you want to see
(beauty is in the eye of the beholder)
Same goes often with our hearing: you hear what you want to hear
It is when there are very small differences or no differences at all,
our brain can & often will start to add subjective information.
Your brain, if left with a choice, is inclined try to confirm your expectations.
You have done a pre-judge.
Remember, some times, no doubt, people will be right, when they tell they can hear.
But even if they can, without some sort of verification, confirmation, such a statement is of no greater and lasting value.
As it may just as well be a case of hear what you want to hear.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.