panomaniac said:Cable fun on a Christmas day? And I thought I was the only Audiophool surfing the forum today.
Too snowy/slushy to go anywhere. Just had to dig out 2 cars that were stuck. Never worked up a sweat in the snow before...
I generally don't hear differences in cables, speaker or IC.
But I have... in very good conditions.
Here is the best cable test I can think of, becuase it was not meant to be a cable test. Happened a long time ago, in a land far away.
We were giving a demo of a big, 4-way horn system at the theater where I worked in Paris. Onken W bass cabs, WE15A horn midbass, Iwata/TAD mid, JBL high. All passive x-over. Tube amp.
The speaker cables were funny looking "multimetal" woven things made by Mr. Isoda of Japan. The cables must have worked OK, the system was amazing.
Then at the end of the 1st day Mr. Isoda asked if he could change the cables for some prototypes he had. We agreed, he swapped, we listened. All agreed that the sound was a little different. A bit more open, more space and some more "ease" with the music. Subltle, but we all heard it. Didn't think much of it. Different cables, different sound, no big deal.
A the next day's demo we had a number of repeat listeners. Nothing was said about the cable change, and they looked the same as the old ones. But here's the thing - several people came up to me during the break to ask if somethng had changed in the system from the day before. "Why do you ask?" I would always say. They all said the same thing. The system seems a little more open, more relaxed, better space and subtle detail.
I have to say I was very surprised. None of this was solicited, no mention had been made of any change, all the people who came up to me did so independantly and described the same thing. And it was basically the same thing we had heard the night before.
Could we have tipped off the repeat visitors in some way? Not that I know of. No mention was made of it at all. And they all heard the same thing and said it was sublte, but real. No one suggested it was cables - just "something had changed."
The ONLY thing that changed from the 1st day to the second were the speaker cables. Same brand, same general construction, same length (about 8M - big space).
That's the only time I've been sure the change was real.
And the conditions were top-notch. World class system, great acoustics. And we all heard it.
And that's my Christmas story.
Hi,
As it happens I know the theatre, the cable and the idea behind it.
What's so special about the Isoda range is that after countless hours of listening to a number of various metals Mr. Isoda designed cables (both LS and IC) that combined a number of various metals, convinced as they were that each metal had its own typical "sound".
The cables were quite a success in Europe some 30+ years ago. No idea if the company's still around.
Soon after that other Japanese companies marketed OFC copper wires and other high purity long crystal variants and that's roughly how this whole cable mess started.
After copper we've seen silver, gold, carbon fiber and clad metals all of which sound different and often "typical" regardless of conductivity.
Japanese audiophiles are also reknowned for their thorough research of any minor detail that could have a negative effect on sound quality.
You wouldn't believe the huge horn loaded systems they'd cram into small appartments.
While I'm convinced that one day someone out there will be able to show proof of what we think we hear, I'm equally convinced that many people involved in audio just don't have what it takes to perceive such subtle difference.
No offence to the latter but that's just how I feel it is.
Ironically in the quest for audio perfection much of the enjoyment of music gets lost which reminds me of another phenomenon that proves to be unmeasurable so far (to the best of my knowledge) which is "musicality". IOW, the ability of a system to play a tune in a musically involving way as opposed to a surgically anaytical way....
Cheers,
fdegrove said:
Ironically in the quest for audio perfection much of the enjoyment of music gets lost which reminds me of another phenomenon that proves to be unmeasurable so far (to the best of my knowledge) which is "musicality". IOW, the ability of a system to play a tune in a musically involving way as opposed to a surgically anaytical way....
Cheers,
How true.It is the so very usual super analysis,super sharp transients,super tight bass,super clean mids,super annoying dose of everything,that is ironically called "neutrality" and unfortunately kills the richness and harmonic structure of music.
Direct radiators in small or medium sized rooms produce too much reflected sound. When dozens of strong but delayed copies of the same thing reach the listener, severe comb filtering arises and many frequency ranges become cancelled. I find the resulting coloration and "phantom" imaging very frustrating, it's anything but hi-fi, it's some kind of "bose" sound.
Horn directivity improves the ratio between direct and reflected sound resulting in a waveform much closer to the one on the recording reaching the listener.
Horn colouration is a synonym of bad crossover and horn design.
Horn directivity improves the ratio between direct and reflected sound resulting in a waveform much closer to the one on the recording reaching the listener.
Horn colouration is a synonym of bad crossover and horn design.
fdegrove said:
That's cool! So you know the demos at Kiron? Did you attend? I'm proud to say they were my idea.
Mr. Isoda is a lovely man, a Bhuddist monk turned metalurgist and audiophile. His crazy cables were multi-metal indeed. Copper, steel and lead(!) were among the strands. The replacement pair had a soft magnetic core. Not something I would ever have tried, but they sure didn't hurt the sound. Don't know if Isoda cables are still made.
SY said:
Poor Sy, maybe he's never heard a good horn system!
(And yes Virginia, they do exist)
j beede said:
I see the emotive issue of money is showing up again. How can pricing be relevant to the discussion? Most luxury items do not claim to offer great value for money, that's why they are luxury. A huge amount of people treat $2k the way most diyers treat $20. Learn to live with this knowledge
analog_sa said:
I see the emotive issue of money is showing up again. How can pricing be relevant to the discussion? Most luxury items do not claim to offer great value for money, that's why they are luxury. A huge amount of people treat $2k the way most diyers treat $20. Learn to live with this knowledge
And thousands of choices in between $20 and 2000.Irony however,wants the true audiophile to be rich,snob,idiot etc.......
Maybe not, but I've heard lots and lots of horn systems that are supposed to be good and (to my ears) they are at best "pretty good for horns." Yes, I've heard Edgar's. Yes, I've heard Le Cleach. Yes, I've heard those big kandy-kolored German jobs (can't remember the name, but they cost more than my house).... The Japanese systems I've heard were among the very worst. The needed the huge second HD of their anemic ES-DHT amps just to be bearable.
Now ask me what I really think.
edit: I should say that I've never heard the infamous monster JBL system described in Audio Critic a few years back. If I were to have hopes for a horn system that doesn't sound like a horn system, that would be a top candidate (IMO).
Speaking of which, here's a hilarious page from Drew Daniels, a first-rate audio engineer.
http://drewdaniels.com/badreligion.html
http://drewdaniels.com/badreligion.html
Here's a question
Is there any consensus on which / what / where alternative cable / morphology is better than another? I see references to everything from magnet wire to CAT5 to solid core to multistrand to single xtal (an oxymoron if there ever was one in wires) to 8 nines silver / copper... and now LEAD? , all purported to offer superior performance over standard zip cord / decent coaxial for their intended purposes.
Seems the only consistency in the "cables matter" camp is inconsistency regarding which is best...
Just a thought.... and Happy New Year...
John L.
Is there any consensus on which / what / where alternative cable / morphology is better than another? I see references to everything from magnet wire to CAT5 to solid core to multistrand to single xtal (an oxymoron if there ever was one in wires) to 8 nines silver / copper... and now LEAD? , all purported to offer superior performance over standard zip cord / decent coaxial for their intended purposes.
Seems the only consistency in the "cables matter" camp is inconsistency regarding which is best...
Just a thought.... and Happy New Year...
John L.
Bit of an odd duck but a top notch recording engineer from the samples, if perhaps a bit too fond of pan-potting. Also refreshing to see one come out so strongly against mp3, high bit rate included. Guessing the picture on his home page is marketing hyperbole and he doesn't really mix with gong and bass adjacent his monitor speakers.
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