Brett said:
I'm not a power cord chaser but still don't see why it's absurd in principle. Absurd is the notion the cable from outlet to the local nuke plant makes a valid counter-argument.
Think about it, most audio control centres - preamps, receivers, whatever - maintain ground continuity though the interconnect cable of unused devices with the rest of the system's equipment. Modern safety standards ensures most equipment does the same through the power cords. Consumer devices must be safety grounded and the bulk are shielded. So power cords and interconnects combine to form a big ball of ground loops concentrating at one end at the pre-amp, the other the wall outlet. In close proximity are wireless routers, cell and portable phones, radio/TV stations, and all manners of the RFI emitters we take for granted. Then there are those we don't. I was surprised last night probing around a filament transformer with a coil, looking for the field null in preparation for chassis mounting, to see how much >>60 Hz hash was emanating from this lightly loaded EI.
HiFi employs a poor ground design standard that guarantees multiple loops so it's not surprising power cords, which comprise half those loops, might have an effect. It's also why any control pre I've built in the last 20 years switched both ground and hot and has been passive.
Re: cables... or not
True.
Each and every: resistor, capacitor, transistor, opamp, PCB
they all have small wires or legs.
And they do not hurt very much.
In simulations we do not even count with them at all
Before begin to worry about wires
we will have to upgrade several 100 active/passive components.
Because technically, no one all of those other components,
can not even come close to a copper wire in performance.
Not within frequency below 100kHz and probably not at any freq.
auplater said:
True.
Each and every: resistor, capacitor, transistor, opamp, PCB
they all have small wires or legs.
And they do not hurt very much.
In simulations we do not even count with them at all
Before begin to worry about wires
we will have to upgrade several 100 active/passive components.
Because technically, no one all of those other components,
can not even come close to a copper wire in performance.
Not within frequency below 100kHz and probably not at any freq.
myabe you could point to a link that shows that electrons pass through the structures of Cu and Ag differently.hihopes said:
I have no disagreement with the description of the implementation of the power grid all the way into equipment, after all I'm an (formerly RF) engineer and now work in the power industry.rdf said:
What I said I found absurd, was that a single strand of silver embedded in a typical generic stranded power lead would make any difference. Even if the whole cable was stranded silver, apart from the ~6% conductivity improvement, I see no reason why Ag should make the slightest difference over copper with the same resistance.
other issues
then there are the errors in the doping profile, governed by erf-C kinetics, for each junction of the diodes and transistors in sand amps, or perhaps the screw dislocations in the filament winding coils of valve reproducers... or the micro-surface profile variations affecting the space-charge profile in control grids of triodes, tetrodes, etc.
No one seems concerned about all of these variables possibly affecting the ultimate outcome of their audio systems, yet are more than willing to jump at any psuedo-science blathered about micro-diodes, grain orientation, 8 nines purity, manganese in copper (huh?) blah, blah in wires as though these are orders of magnitude above the variables I've mentioned above.
Makes this all pretty specious in my view...especially since i've been involved in building ultra-precise josephson devices, squid detectors, bolometers, etc that truly do require close attention to some of the purported alledged effects of cables at audio frequencies.... mindless
John L.
then there are the errors in the doping profile, governed by erf-C kinetics, for each junction of the diodes and transistors in sand amps, or perhaps the screw dislocations in the filament winding coils of valve reproducers... or the micro-surface profile variations affecting the space-charge profile in control grids of triodes, tetrodes, etc.
No one seems concerned about all of these variables possibly affecting the ultimate outcome of their audio systems, yet are more than willing to jump at any psuedo-science blathered about micro-diodes, grain orientation, 8 nines purity, manganese in copper (huh?) blah, blah in wires as though these are orders of magnitude above the variables I've mentioned above.
Makes this all pretty specious in my view...especially since i've been involved in building ultra-precise josephson devices, squid detectors, bolometers, etc that truly do require close attention to some of the purported alledged effects of cables at audio frequencies.... mindless
John L.
Question
If you build two mono amps, but make them different in layout and wireing...do they sound alike, or will it affect the soundstage
btw, tubeamp builders know that the same amp will be slightly different whether its hardwired or with print boards
Well, hardwired tube amps may even sound slightly different if built by two different people
If you build two mono amps, but make them different in layout and wireing...do they sound alike, or will it affect the soundstage
btw, tubeamp builders know that the same amp will be slightly different whether its hardwired or with print boards
Well, hardwired tube amps may even sound slightly different if built by two different people
audio-kraut said:
You are right, if one listen long enough to one system, the brain may start to hide certain problems. However this can't explain the difference in sound between identical cables, the one played in, the other not, after playing in the new set (on a dummy load), both sets sound the same.
Merry Christmas to all!
André
Andre Visser said:
Yes - I burn in cables by leaving them running and going away for the day. Sometimes they sound different when I get back (often worse before - hopefully - better). Eventually the sound settles down and does not change. My CAT5 cables ended up sounding worse, and got dumped - annoying because I'd gone to some effort to source the parts and weave these.
My DAC took only about 3 days, the Charlize amp nearly a month (grrr), cables didn't change much after about 2 weeks.
I see Audioquest are now working on the idea that cable burn-in may occur during use which gradually produces a persistent charge on some layers of the dielectric, and are working on cables with battery-charged dielectric to give that "cable-cooked" sound right out of the box!
But then the skeptics with their bell-wired systems ain't interested.
How I wish that wires made no audible difference and I could just tweak components.
Panicos K said:Nice
Any avid cyclist can attest to perfect efficiency of a pedestrian's ear/brain system at filtering out the most obvious, even panicked sounds. In many cases the threshold detection can be improved dramatically by throwing the bell at them.
Andre Visser said:
It's easy, convince yourself that cables make no difference and never ever try to experiment with them again.
Some manage to convince themselves that MP3's sound good, so everything is possible.
Currently I have DAC -> VdH RCA -> TVC -> Glasshouse Silver RCA -> Amp etc.
I swapped the two cables round. I expected - probably - no difference. Possibly improved (I would leave it), possibly worse (change back).
Well - everything sounded dramatically worse. Change back - all OK again. Perfectly reproducible.
So sorry - I can't convince myself, Visser, - even though I am utterly convinced that SOME aspects of burning-in / cables etc are almost certainly psychological effects. And the smell of snake-oil is so pervasive.
when you started...
...with your first hi-fi system you never changed cables?
I remember then, not even reading much about hi-fi, just wanting to have better system then my portable hitachi, I started with technics amp and jvc cd player and infinity sm62 speakers. Cables were ordinary cords that I could get in our local store for electrical stuff. Then I met one guy laughing at me, just as someone here is to someone with a question dividing nation to believers and not believers, at the library. I was reading electronic book speaking about loudspeakers. He said that just professionals can do a good speaker not a boy like me ( Now, I have front horns, OBs and CB and BR speakers of very good quality in my house and he was left behing with warfedale speakers and some rega amp-not bad but high from very good audio systems). But his speaker cables were strangest thing I ever saw. Thick and heavy with gold platted connections. Come on, i thought it was a fancy fancy stuff going on here. He never led them to me. His friend led me Cable Talk speaker cables to try and that is where the story begins...
Hi-fi is neverending chain of components that can be changed and like butterfly effect the change will make place somewhere in the system. I thought that better systems should be less sensitive to it but it seems that they are not. But they are less sensitive if done right on more chain section (good power supply should avoid sound change when cable supply is different, and speaker cables should be made redundant if coupling between the amp and speakers is very good- zero impedance amp - this concept wants to avoid cables as sound transducercs and I saw before some monoblocks do it also and it is a relief...).
I just want to know-
did ones that are saying cables do not make difference try it and on what system? I saw a lot of folk here saying this and that comparing sounds on very poor systems and not so revealing speakers and bad sources, some are truly and mostly at heart engineers, they see and hear through plan, but ones just listening and wiring kits together, should have trained ears and good references at home.
What we should be very careful of, is quick judgement of an equipment. If you are long time in this hi-fi nutting, you will develop some taste and find people on net or in magazines that have fairly similar taste to yours. If you can listen to the same equipment at home as they are you will (better have it before them-your findings will be more acurate, less biased) find that actualy a lot of people hears same thing in that equipment.
!!
T
...with your first hi-fi system you never changed cables?
I remember then, not even reading much about hi-fi, just wanting to have better system then my portable hitachi, I started with technics amp and jvc cd player and infinity sm62 speakers. Cables were ordinary cords that I could get in our local store for electrical stuff. Then I met one guy laughing at me, just as someone here is to someone with a question dividing nation to believers and not believers, at the library. I was reading electronic book speaking about loudspeakers. He said that just professionals can do a good speaker not a boy like me ( Now, I have front horns, OBs and CB and BR speakers of very good quality in my house and he was left behing with warfedale speakers and some rega amp-not bad but high from very good audio systems). But his speaker cables were strangest thing I ever saw. Thick and heavy with gold platted connections. Come on, i thought it was a fancy fancy stuff going on here. He never led them to me. His friend led me Cable Talk speaker cables to try and that is where the story begins...
Hi-fi is neverending chain of components that can be changed and like butterfly effect the change will make place somewhere in the system. I thought that better systems should be less sensitive to it but it seems that they are not. But they are less sensitive if done right on more chain section (good power supply should avoid sound change when cable supply is different, and speaker cables should be made redundant if coupling between the amp and speakers is very good- zero impedance amp - this concept wants to avoid cables as sound transducercs and I saw before some monoblocks do it also and it is a relief...).
I just want to know-
did ones that are saying cables do not make difference try it and on what system? I saw a lot of folk here saying this and that comparing sounds on very poor systems and not so revealing speakers and bad sources, some are truly and mostly at heart engineers, they see and hear through plan, but ones just listening and wiring kits together, should have trained ears and good references at home.
What we should be very careful of, is quick judgement of an equipment. If you are long time in this hi-fi nutting, you will develop some taste and find people on net or in magazines that have fairly similar taste to yours. If you can listen to the same equipment at home as they are you will (better have it before them-your findings will be more acurate, less biased) find that actualy a lot of people hears same thing in that equipment.
!!
T
These are a few questions for people claiming to hear differences between cables:
Do you perceive differences in sound when changing speaker placement and listening position?
If your reply to the previous question is yes, are these differences more or less drastical than the ones that you perceive between cables?
Do you play with these parameters often?
How much time have you taken to optimize these parameters in your current setup?
Do you perceive differences in sound between rooms of different size and shape?
Can you hear a reverberant tail when you clap your hands in your listening room?
Have you made any attempt at conditioning the acoustics of your listening room?
Do you perceive differences in sound when changing speaker placement and listening position?
If your reply to the previous question is yes, are these differences more or less drastical than the ones that you perceive between cables?
Do you play with these parameters often?
How much time have you taken to optimize these parameters in your current setup?
Do you perceive differences in sound between rooms of different size and shape?
Can you hear a reverberant tail when you clap your hands in your listening room?
Have you made any attempt at conditioning the acoustics of your listening room?
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