anatech said:Hi rabbitz,
I take it you've seen these as well?
-Chris
Only what my techo buddies who service these things tell me. I only play with the Sony units such as the KSS-240A as I can work with those. I've never had to touch a KSS-213 as I've never had a failure.
I do really like the KSS-270A in the CDP-X55ES as it's been the best performer I've had with amazing tracking ability. The problem is I can't find any spares for the future.
I had a PS Audio Lambda Drive with the original cdm-pro mechanism, and while it was very nicely made compared to the later stuff, it did not last very long relative to the number of hours used. (<1000 hrs) Worse I was unable to get non-suspect parts to fix it, (bought a supposedly new pick up assembly from a fellow in Germany and it must have been bad, cost like $150) and finally gave up and sold it. I am very soured on Philips in general as a result. Good spare parts for this or any Philips mechanism seem almost impossible to find.
I gave a 15yr old Sony to a friend a couple of years ago, cost less than 10% of what the Lambda cost when I bought it new, AND it is still working just fine with the original mechanism (and laser)
I gave a 15yr old Sony to a friend a couple of years ago, cost less than 10% of what the Lambda cost when I bought it new, AND it is still working just fine with the original mechanism (and laser)
Hi Kevin,
Two reasons I hate Philips are :
1. A complete lack of support and
2. Useless to try and service, replace entire mech. Never linear types can be fixed but the quality is very poor.
Hi rabbitz,
That is one of the better mechanisms for sure! It's a newer head than I was familiar with, but the same concept. Very fast and silent. I wouldn't mind rebuilding one of those for experimenting and another for the bedroom.
-Chris
Two reasons I hate Philips are :
1. A complete lack of support and
2. Useless to try and service, replace entire mech. Never linear types can be fixed but the quality is very poor.
Hi rabbitz,
That is one of the better mechanisms for sure! It's a newer head than I was familiar with, but the same concept. Very fast and silent. I wouldn't mind rebuilding one of those for experimenting and another for the bedroom.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I was trying to be diplomatic, what I actually think of Philips and their entirely fiscally oriented support policy is basically unprintable.. I think we are in total agreement on this issue.
What comes to mind is:
Appalling, unconscionable, unforgivable, intolerable, and unfathomable. How could any company produce a device marketed for and used in so many stratospherically expensive products and provide no spare parts, no support, and no viable replacement during what would be considered the normal product life cycle of these products??? (Particularly given that they must have known that the pick up assemblies in their cd mechanisms wear out much more quickly than the units they will be used in? I am sure these things went through life testing. )
No high end audio designer should ever incorporate one of these shoddy Philips mechanisms (By definition any current Philips mech) into a design intended to last a decade or so. Acceptable perhaps in a player that cost $100 or less, but not one that cost over $2000 new... I was absolutely devastated when my Lambda Drive quit on me..
I was trying to be diplomatic, what I actually think of Philips and their entirely fiscally oriented support policy is basically unprintable..
I think we are in total agreement on this issue.What comes to mind is:
Appalling, unconscionable, unforgivable, intolerable, and unfathomable. How could any company produce a device marketed for and used in so many stratospherically expensive products and provide no spare parts, no support, and no viable replacement during what would be considered the normal product life cycle of these products??? (Particularly given that they must have known that the pick up assemblies in their cd mechanisms wear out much more quickly than the units they will be used in? I am sure these things went through life testing. )
No high end audio designer should ever incorporate one of these shoddy Philips mechanisms (By definition any current Philips mech) into a design intended to last a decade or so. Acceptable perhaps in a player that cost $100 or less, but not one that cost over $2000 new... I was absolutely devastated when my Lambda Drive quit on me..
anatech
Welcome to the disposeable world.
Companies don't want you to fix anything, they want you to buy new..
Interesting about the Philips cdm's.
Have you tested or delt with the CD PROLF ?
http://www.enco-group.com/products.htm
allan
Welcome to the disposeable world.
Companies don't want you to fix anything, they want you to buy new..
Interesting about the Philips cdm's.
Have you tested or delt with the CD PROLF ?
http://www.enco-group.com/products.htm
allan
anatech said:
It's a shame I can't find any spare lasers. The laser had been changed just prior to my purchase of the player so should last a long time.
Most of my players are KSS-240A based so no sourcing problems. My original CDP-990 from 1991 still has the original laser and still going strong after continual use in that period. I think that was a golden era for CD players before the bean counters stepped in. All my more recent players either didn't last long or of poor build quality.
Hi Allan,
That is a change from normal. I suspect that the jukebox manufacturer's have a maintenance contract on their stuff for the end user and they got together for a very compelling case for Philips.
We all know that Philips do not support their product, these guys bent their arm behind their back. Good for them!
Hi rabbitz,
-Chris
That is a change from normal. I suspect that the jukebox manufacturer's have a maintenance contract on their stuff for the end user and they got together for a very compelling case for Philips.
We all know that Philips do not support their product, these guys bent their arm behind their back. Good for them!
Hi rabbitz,
Yes, I watched the quality plummet over the years. It got to a point where I didn't enjoy working on them anymore.
-Chris
I've often thought about a homebrew CD player. I didn't realise the Philips mechanisms were so poor, to be honest!
Now, what I DO know is poor is the mechanisms often used in cd-rom drives... but then again, small price margin on these these days, even on DVD-ROM drives and writers. I saw one particular unfortunate mechanism (from a REALLY cheap "unbranded" drive) where the rail that the laser ran on was PLASTIC. Needless to say after a year or so, the thing was worn out that much that the laser rattled quite nicely on the rail and the thing wouldn't hold tracking at all.
What I have thought about doing is making a cd player based around a CDROM drive, but rather than just play back the SPDIF output or the (dreadful!) analogue audio.. I thought about using the IDE port to read the audio data (like a CD ripper program) and then play *that* back from a buffer. That way, the mechanism's quality is less important provided it reads the data correctly.
Now, what I DO know is poor is the mechanisms often used in cd-rom drives... but then again, small price margin on these these days, even on DVD-ROM drives and writers. I saw one particular unfortunate mechanism (from a REALLY cheap "unbranded" drive) where the rail that the laser ran on was PLASTIC. Needless to say after a year or so, the thing was worn out that much that the laser rattled quite nicely on the rail and the thing wouldn't hold tracking at all.
What I have thought about doing is making a cd player based around a CDROM drive, but rather than just play back the SPDIF output or the (dreadful!) analogue audio.. I thought about using the IDE port to read the audio data (like a CD ripper program) and then play *that* back from a buffer. That way, the mechanism's quality is less important provided it reads the data correctly.
Hi jaycee,
You just described the Creek CD Player. Don't believe that the read out data is any better. Remember how long it takes to rip a CD in high quality mode.
The VAM1202 runs the laser head on plastic rails along slides with some goo to smooth the way.
If you want to make your own, concentrate on a mechanism that produces a nice clear eye pattern. Read it once, read it right.
-Chris
You just described the Creek CD Player. Don't believe that the read out data is any better. Remember how long it takes to rip a CD in high quality mode.
The VAM1202 runs the laser head on plastic rails along slides with some goo to smooth the way.
If you want to make your own, concentrate on a mechanism that produces a nice clear eye pattern. Read it once, read it right.
-Chris
Hi,
It is very depressing to read all this. Going back to the intention of this thread, we are trying to find a decent transport kit. As far as I can see, the vast majority of the kits available are Philips based. I suspect that this is because they are the only manufacturer that would cater (via vendor) for small quantity orders. Sony vendors deal with OEM of 1000 units up. Also, the only data sheets that can be found freely are the half decent ones from Philips. There is zilch on Sonys. They like to keep the goodies to themselves. That does not leave a lot of choices for DIYers, is there? Ripping up old transports is not the same as building the thing from ground up.
Cheers,
KK
It is very depressing to read all this. Going back to the intention of this thread, we are trying to find a decent transport kit. As far as I can see, the vast majority of the kits available are Philips based. I suspect that this is because they are the only manufacturer that would cater (via vendor) for small quantity orders. Sony vendors deal with OEM of 1000 units up. Also, the only data sheets that can be found freely are the half decent ones from Philips. There is zilch on Sonys. They like to keep the goodies to themselves. That does not leave a lot of choices for DIYers, is there? Ripping up old transports is not the same as building the thing from ground up.
Cheers,
KK
Do you guys think all these Philips CD transports are bad even the recent models like this one from: http://www.diy-high-end.com ?
I was about to start thinking about building myself a transport with this gear but you put me on hold a bit. I could use some balanced advise on the later models (CDpro2 and LF etc). Positive experience is just as welcome by the way. I really like to have an objective view in the end. (if that's possibe...)
I was about to start thinking about building myself a transport with this gear but you put me on hold a bit. I could use some balanced advise on the later models (CDpro2 and LF etc). Positive experience is just as welcome by the way. I really like to have an objective view in the end. (if that's possibe...)
jaycee said:
Hi Jaycee,
I wondered if you knew about this Aussie CD player, using a CD ROM. It's apparently quite good, and the drive can be replaced easily with any drive, removing the main point of failure of CD players...
I'm not sure how it's implemented, though. I did read about it in a magazine, but have forgotten.
http://www.redgumaudio.com/au/rg_frame.html
Look under Products/RGCD2 CD player.
Cheers
Stuey
Hi Malcolm,
That looks like it has the upgraded magnetic clamp! Yes, use it!
Hi Naz,
My suggestion? Find a scrap CD player with a Sony transport. Buy and extra head and motor or two and start building. I would also use the old servo section, so keep the main board and run your servos off the existing power supply. Yank out the RF signal, EFM signal or data stream and go from there. This keeps the project managable and you have alignment instructions that work too!
Any complaints? Just start with a good transport / servo section and off you go.
-Chris
That looks like it has the upgraded magnetic clamp! Yes, use it!
Hi Naz,
It's information, and all information is good. Especially when you are going to roll your own, why start off with a dud? We are performing a public service here.
My suggestion? Find a scrap CD player with a Sony transport. Buy and extra head and motor or two and start building. I would also use the old servo section, so keep the main board and run your servos off the existing power supply. Yank out the RF signal, EFM signal or data stream and go from there. This keeps the project managable and you have alignment instructions that work too!
Any complaints? Just start with a good transport / servo section and off you go.
-Chris
I looked over the redgum stuff and noted that they are using the spdif digital outputs on the cd/dvdrom drives in their players. There has been a lot of discussion about the error correction capability and jitter levels of cdrom players here and elsewhere. I had rather hoped that they were using the ata digital outputs with a microcontroller, dsp and memory to do the task.. These units do have one big advantage and that is that when the cdrom drive finally fails you aren't stuck with a dead player - and some cdroms apparently do have good error correction, and reasonable spdif performance.
(A friend loaned me an old NEC 6X outboard SCSI drive that works quite well as a transport, unfortunately it does use caddies.)
(A friend loaned me an old NEC 6X outboard SCSI drive that works quite well as a transport, unfortunately it does use caddies.)
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