DDR? The pencil would have good waf 
though I already showed her pics of the Abby and she liked those. Dunno if that kind of thing would be good for this driver or not.
The fhxl/fh3 look a bit easier to build, specially for my inaugural run. How would making the fhxl with a right angle in the front be? Or would that ruin the sound? I'm not really a fan of that external front angle eAsthetically the way it leans back.
though I already showed her pics of the Abby and she liked those. Dunno if that kind of thing would be good for this driver or not. The fhxl/fh3 look a bit easier to build, specially for my inaugural run. How would making the fhxl with a right angle in the front be? Or would that ruin the sound? I'm not really a fan of that external front angle eAsthetically the way it leans back.
Downward Dynamic Range
The ability to reveal all the very important low level information (even in the precence of higher level signal), the info that adds meat & body to voices & instruments, gives you the subtle differences that make them seem more real and the info needed to help create a good image/soundstage.
dave
Re the Abby - if you're referring to the late Terry Cain and Lovecraft Designs product, I've heard those with both FE166E and FF165s - great sounding rig. IINM, at one point Scott had penned similar looking designs that might still be calculable for the 10Ps, but I'll note that they also had a tilted front baffle, and indeed are much taller and imposing than either of the Frugelhorns.
Funny you should comment on the tilt - an earlier version of the FH was built without that, and the new, simpler design folding along with the curved mouth rear serendipitously allowed for the aesthetic achieved with the 5dg angled front - but as they say, beauty is in the eye ...
The stacked twin FH shown here outfitted as an MTM certainly shows that a vertical front is possible, but to my thinking it's not as elegant.
Funny you should comment on the tilt - an earlier version of the FH was built without that, and the new, simpler design folding along with the curved mouth rear serendipitously allowed for the aesthetic achieved with the 5dg angled front - but as they say, beauty is in the eye ...
The stacked twin FH shown here outfitted as an MTM certainly shows that a vertical front is possible, but to my thinking it's not as elegant.
Attachments
Indeed there were -- the Festival series. Only one set, AFAIK, were ever built. An A10p version is doable (if i can speak for Scott). Driver can be put on vertical or sloped side -- or (maybe) on the side.
dave
was looking a little closer at my living room today and realized that the listener will almost never be in an goptimal listening position. iinm that means the speakers will need a rather large sound stage. should i rethink my driver choice and box?
also thinking i might just try starting with a fhxl or pencil since it looks relatively easy. any reason to not use standard 1/2" ply other than for the finish? i might even build one of each and compare sound. then build a pair of my favorite.
if i ever go big i like the look of the front facing double horns better than the rear facing. what's the difference between the 2 soundwise?
also thinking i might just try starting with a fhxl or pencil since it looks relatively easy. any reason to not use standard 1/2" ply other than for the finish? i might even build one of each and compare sound. then build a pair of my favorite.
if i ever go big i like the look of the front facing double horns better than the rear facing. what's the difference between the 2 soundwise?
Quality 1/2" ply might be OK for the FHxl, the Pensil would need a full complement of braces. The baffles would need to be doubled. We are doing our FHxl flat-paks in 15mm with 18mm baffles (Murphy Ply from Oregon, a step up from Baltic Birch).
dave
Well for one thing, minimum listening distance for full integration of what are essentially large MTM sources
thanks for all the help guys. guess now i just need to buy the stuff and get build ing. i did stumble onto a woden build here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/236292-my-woden-valiant-s.html
so i may yet change my mind and go with one of those. prob still with the alpair though.
so i may yet change my mind and go with one of those
. prob still with the alpair though.
... woden valiant...
so i may yet change my mind and go with one of those
The Alpair version of that is Maeshowe.
dave
Was just thinking, the amp I'll be using for these speakers is an old Pioneer vsx d510 av receiver. I may one day build a better amp or perhaps buy an inexpensive 2 channel amp like a NAD or something but that won't be anytime soon. Knowing this would you still pick the 10p or would you go with something else?
Update: 2 years later and I finally pulled the trigger on drivers. I ended up getting a pair of Alpair 12p's. What started out as a birthday present for the wife (turntable) went a little overboard, but she loves it! I got her a Pro-Ject Debut Esprit SB, Pro-Ject phono box s pre-amp. Then realized we didn't have speakers that could go where she wants to listen. So..... I grabbed the Alpairs. It was fun trying to find a place to break them in without her seeing/hearing them
I decided on a simple open baffle design (which turned into a fairly elaborate decorative piece) because I knew I would stew far to long on which cabinet to build and couldn't find current plans on Madisound for the 12p (they had plenty for the 10s). So, this build is experimental and a semi-long term temporary solution. Eventually I'd like to build an old style phonograph cabinet with everything built in: speakers, amp, record player, etc. I had just over 1 week from start to finish for this project.
For now I'm using an old circa mid-late 90s Pioneer 5.1 a/v receiver, but will probably upgrade to a better stereo set that includes blu-tooth (for convenience and WAF). Initial sound impressions of the setup are: fantastic sound stage. They sound great regardless of where you are in the room (they even sound great when in the next room). Bass is extremely weak--which is saying a lot from me since I hate the typical audio set up of overpowered bass subs etc. Once I added an old jamo sub I had, it fills things out nicely. I get good sound from everything I throw at it, symphonic classical, jazz, classic rock, alternative rock, acoustic--even sources: various vinyl eras, phone/tablet playing mp3s, FLAC, or WAV. (My reference speakers are Altec Lansing 605b and sennheiser momentum 2 over ear headphones, + I'm a full time professional classical musician).
I'd appreciate recomendations on sub drivers or woofers that would be a good match for these speakers since I stole the jamo sub from my theater room.
Finally, thanks for all the help you guys gave 2 years ago.
I decided on a simple open baffle design (which turned into a fairly elaborate decorative piece) because I knew I would stew far to long on which cabinet to build and couldn't find current plans on Madisound for the 12p (they had plenty for the 10s). So, this build is experimental and a semi-long term temporary solution. Eventually I'd like to build an old style phonograph cabinet with everything built in: speakers, amp, record player, etc. I had just over 1 week from start to finish for this project.
For now I'm using an old circa mid-late 90s Pioneer 5.1 a/v receiver, but will probably upgrade to a better stereo set that includes blu-tooth (for convenience and WAF). Initial sound impressions of the setup are: fantastic sound stage. They sound great regardless of where you are in the room (they even sound great when in the next room). Bass is extremely weak--which is saying a lot from me since I hate the typical audio set up of overpowered bass subs etc. Once I added an old jamo sub I had, it fills things out nicely. I get good sound from everything I throw at it, symphonic classical, jazz, classic rock, alternative rock, acoustic--even sources: various vinyl eras, phone/tablet playing mp3s, FLAC, or WAV. (My reference speakers are Altec Lansing 605b and sennheiser momentum 2 over ear headphones, + I'm a full time professional classical musician).
I'd appreciate recomendations on sub drivers or woofers that would be a good match for these speakers since I stole the jamo sub from my theater room.
Finally, thanks for all the help you guys gave 2 years ago.
Attachments
Cute. Glad you like them.
Some comments.
1/ no bass because of the vestigial baffle. All the bass is cancelling out
2/ no rebate for the driver
3/ the backside is not flared out causing colourations from the reflections (rebating the driver may be sufficient to have the back clear enuff that it may no longer be an issue -- using 18mm baffles the rebate is sufficient for the A10)
dave
Some comments.
1/ no bass because of the vestigial baffle. All the bass is cancelling out
2/ no rebate for the driver
3/ the backside is not flared out causing colourations from the reflections (rebating the driver may be sufficient to have the back clear enuff that it may no longer be an issue -- using 18mm baffles the rebate is sufficient for the A10)
dave
They look nice... But the sound can be immensely improved if you had not mounted them in a round baffle which is the worst possible shape to mount a speaker in if you don't want peaks and dips to color your music. The equidistant nature of a round baffle causes 6dB to 10dB ripples in the response (if you were to measure it). Change the shape to a rectangle or a trapezoid and it will sound much smoother and more balanced.
Diffraction from baffle edges
You don't have any bass because the baffle is so small, anything below maybe 600Hz will cancel itself so what you effectively have is a mid tweeter. Open baffle looks easy but takes study to get it to sound good.
Look here to see what changing from round to trapezoid baffle did for the response of this speaker:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/293125-scanspeak-10f-8424-pvc-pipe-fast.html
Diffraction from baffle edges
You don't have any bass because the baffle is so small, anything below maybe 600Hz will cancel itself so what you effectively have is a mid tweeter. Open baffle looks easy but takes study to get it to sound good.
Look here to see what changing from round to trapezoid baffle did for the response of this speaker:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/293125-scanspeak-10f-8424-pvc-pipe-fast.html
OK on the champhered backside -- didn't look like it when i viewed the picture.
On an OB how low you can go depends on how big the baffle is. Yours is not much more than enuff to mount the driver on, hence vestigial. XRK's estimate of 600 Hz is probably close, then yo have to add the natural roll-off an octave or so lower.
The "narrow" baffles we often see today, rely on big woofers that have high Qts (so have a peak down low) or are EQed to look like that and then XOed such that they are rolled off at the top early… for instance MJK judges the Beta 15 at 92.5 dB and yet with XO & baffle roll-off matches an 87 dB midTweeter with no padding.
What you are getting is completely expected.
dave
On an OB how low you can go depends on how big the baffle is. Yours is not much more than enuff to mount the driver on, hence vestigial. XRK's estimate of 600 Hz is probably close, then yo have to add the natural roll-off an octave or so lower.
The "narrow" baffles we often see today, rely on big woofers that have high Qts (so have a peak down low) or are EQed to look like that and then XOed such that they are rolled off at the top early… for instance MJK judges the Beta 15 at 92.5 dB and yet with XO & baffle roll-off matches an 87 dB midTweeter with no padding.
What you are getting is completely expected.
dave
How low do you want to go? Can you add EQ?
A baffle with no EQ would probably need to be measured in meters, with EQ you limit the loudness available because you start eating up excursion.
We got amazing bass with a high Q specially made open baffle driver of similar size in a 17 x 4' baffle. The A12 is not high Q, so the best you can get without EQ is the infinite baffle response. Data sheet suggest F10>75 Hz.
dave
A baffle with no EQ would probably need to be measured in meters, with EQ you limit the loudness available because you start eating up excursion.
We got amazing bass with a high Q specially made open baffle driver of similar size in a 17 x 4' baffle. The A12 is not high Q, so the best you can get without EQ is the infinite baffle response. Data sheet suggest F10>75 Hz.
dave
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