More important the flat earth idea was much less prevalent than folks lead on.
They can call us what they want, it doesn't change the fact that the only way to really advance in science is with evidence and more importantly that evidence peer reviewed, tested and re-tested otherwise.....
Hans Christian Andersen : The Emperor's New Clothes
On some forums you can get banned for asking for evidence or having an opposing view to the snake oil theories being peddled, the worse form of censorship, it is the equivalent of a 4 year old child putting their fingers in their ears and yelling loudly when talking to them.
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Does slagging people off for asking relevant questions forward the cause of esoteric audiophile beliefs or make them look even stupider to the rest of the electronics fraternity, I often wonder......
Of course one wonders how many of these people would move to a country run by a dictator where free speech and questioning things is not allowed? Those forums that don't allow objective views and questions probably don't realise they are dictators themselves, supressing views...too busy breaking in their cables.
Of course one wonders how many of these people would move to a country run by a dictator where free speech and questioning things is not allowed? Those forums that don't allow objective views and questions probably don't realise they are dictators themselves, supressing views...too busy breaking in their cables.
Of course this then begs the question of when snake oil is harmless. Placebo effect is strong in humans, which is why homeopathy hangs around and at least in the UK it has been realised that the homeopathic quacks patter can be used by GPs to help patients.
If a $1 green pen for CD edges improves someone's enjoyment due to placebo is that bad? Charging $1000 for the pen would be, but is there a line underwhich it is 'good value'. Or is messing with someones perception evil in all cases and marketing depts should be first up against the wall?
If a $1 green pen for CD edges improves someone's enjoyment due to placebo is that bad? Charging $1000 for the pen would be, but is there a line underwhich it is 'good value'. Or is messing with someones perception evil in all cases and marketing depts should be first up against the wall?
IMO, it depends on the claims. If a marketer of green pens says, "Our users report greater musical satisfaction," that's difficult to argue with. If that marketer says, "The use of these pens reduces tracking error and improves the sound," that's a fact-claim and, absent supporting data, is fraud.
"Of course this then begs the question of when snake oil is harmless."
I remember when I was young, single and music was a larger part of my life. During this time, I spend a lot of my free money on records and stereo equipment. Later the majority of the music stores started moving toward selling “high end” equipment. After several purchases that were disappointing and hearing lame excuses from the salesmen, I quit upgrading. So because of their deception, the stores lost future sales from me and most of my friends. Later after my electronics courses, I realized that a lot of the claims of these salesmen were misleading and some were downright deceptive.
So is snake oil harmless? In my opinion, no, it is not.
I remember when I was young, single and music was a larger part of my life. During this time, I spend a lot of my free money on records and stereo equipment. Later the majority of the music stores started moving toward selling “high end” equipment. After several purchases that were disappointing and hearing lame excuses from the salesmen, I quit upgrading. So because of their deception, the stores lost future sales from me and most of my friends. Later after my electronics courses, I realized that a lot of the claims of these salesmen were misleading and some were downright deceptive.
So is snake oil harmless? In my opinion, no, it is not.
So extending that you reach the point where telling someone that better equipment (measurably) "will" improve their enjoyment of the music is a type of deceit. Which is fair enough...
Any trade of value for value should be done with honesty (to themselves and each other) of all voluntary participants. That's why SY makes a good point with his distinction described in post #7211.
It isn't important to me if someone wants to spend $5k on the latest hi-fi gimmick. Ignoring any deeper philosophical implications. The greatest harm may be that successful deception just breeds further deceptions.
It isn't important to me if someone wants to spend $5k on the latest hi-fi gimmick. Ignoring any deeper philosophical implications. The greatest harm may be that successful deception just breeds further deceptions.
I agree. Just mulling the case of where a hifi dealer organised free seminars on 'how to listen', where they teach people what to listen for. The hidden intent of course is to make the punters unhappy with their own systems, although the seminar itself could be completely factual and accurate. It's a short jump from that to the usual hifi show demo where they tell you what you will hear when the magic field enhancer is turned on.
Anyway have the strapline for placebo audio 'this stuff shouldn't work'.
Anyway have the strapline for placebo audio 'this stuff shouldn't work'.
Another way I believe that snake oil is harmful is the affect it could have on future progress.
For example, imagine if a large conservative company was presented with an idea for a new speaker design, perhaps an idea that would involve a lot of R & D. After this company investigated the market, what do you think they would discover especially if they looked at some the magazines that cater to the audio market?
Do you think they would risk the investment capital after reading some of the articles and reviews in these magazines?
For example, imagine if a large conservative company was presented with an idea for a new speaker design, perhaps an idea that would involve a lot of R & D. After this company investigated the market, what do you think they would discover especially if they looked at some the magazines that cater to the audio market?
Do you think they would risk the investment capital after reading some of the articles and reviews in these magazines?
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