You know guys, I seriously think Dave is going to kill me...
The more I listen to these little FE103E's, the more it deters me from wanting to go with the larger FE16x drivers. I can't help but imagine that even with Dave's fully tweaked FE166eN, I'm going to lose the ultra-fine detail in the mids and highs as well as the imaging, depth and sound staging.
Everyone that gives comparisons between the 103's, 126's and 127's to the larger drivers, they ALL say the same exact things, that the larger drivers simply don't have the delicacy and detail that the small 4" and 4.5" drivers have. Honestly, this scares me and is the reason I do not want to move away from the small drivers. Also, I do not want to resort to using tweeters, which to me would defeat the purpose of using FR drivers in the first place.
So with plenty of consideration I think I'm going to go with a pair of FE126/127eN drivers. Sorry Dave, I can't help it. If I can be this happy with completely stock FE103E's in cardboard boxes, then the FE126/127eN's in proper enclosures can only better them without loosing anything and gaining everything over what the 103's are already giving me.
The more I listen to these little FE103E's, the more it deters me from wanting to go with the larger FE16x drivers. I can't help but imagine that even with Dave's fully tweaked FE166eN, I'm going to lose the ultra-fine detail in the mids and highs as well as the imaging, depth and sound staging.
Everyone that gives comparisons between the 103's, 126's and 127's to the larger drivers, they ALL say the same exact things, that the larger drivers simply don't have the delicacy and detail that the small 4" and 4.5" drivers have. Honestly, this scares me and is the reason I do not want to move away from the small drivers. Also, I do not want to resort to using tweeters, which to me would defeat the purpose of using FR drivers in the first place.
So with plenty of consideration I think I'm going to go with a pair of FE126/127eN drivers. Sorry Dave, I can't help it. If I can be this happy with completely stock FE103E's in cardboard boxes, then the FE126/127eN's in proper enclosures can only better them without loosing anything and gaining everything over what the 103's are already giving me.
planet10 said:
I can ship those from stock. I've sort of been waiting for this shoe to drop.
Note: the FE167eN probably does mids & maybe even tops better than stock FE103, but not as good as FE127eN (or FE126eN)
I think for your room & needs FE127eN is the best choice.
dave
Oh, so you were just waiting for me to figure things out on my own eventually, huh? LOL
It took me a while, but I did come around. I don't know why, but when it comes to speakers, I always think "big" instead of being rational right from the beginning.
So now with the FE127eN's in view, my question is, should I just get one pair or should I go with two pair and do a bipole design? And if a bipole design, would the eN's be needed for both sides or can one get by with stock E's on the rear?
The above questions are probably me thinking "big" again. Please stop me if that's what's happening.
chops said:
Oh, so you were just waiting for me to figure things out on my own eventually, huh? LOL
It took me a while, but I did come around. I don't know why, but when it comes to speakers, I always think "big" instead of being rational right from the beginning.
So now with the FE127eN's in view, my question is, should I just get one pair or should I go with two pair and do a bipole design? And if a bipole design, would the eN's be needed for both sides or can one get by with stock E's on the rear?
The above questions are probably me thinking "big" again. Please stop me if that's what's happening.
hello, it's square one again, remember me?
the answer to your question is think about the room and application first
oh, that's not a definitive answer?
surprise, surprise
Since you've been bouncing around on this for a while now, you should probably through out all your notes, and take some time to decompress from the whole over-thinking process. Today is New-Years Day - read a book*, watch a couple of good movies, or football games, etc .
But seriously .....
I guess it all depends on what your definition/ expectation of "BIG" is all about - ie. image height/width or dynamics / bass extension (these do not always go together). Bipole can achieve a lot of benefits, but is not necessarily the right answer to a question whose parameters haven't been completely defined.
I can tell you that of all the quite different enclosure designs I've built or heard for the FE127E (at last count at least 8), the 2 with the "biggest" sound (in very different ways) would probably be the Harveys and the Milevas. I don't think it's any secret what for me are the areas in which I find the Fonken excels over these two designs. Further, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you should never overlook the significance of the speaker/ room interface, but it can be particularly important when dealing with designs utilizing single full range drivers of this size.
* recommended reading:
Daniel Levitin - "This is your Brain in Music" and "The World in Six Songs - How the Musical Brain Created Human Nature"
chrisb said:
hello, it's square one again, remember me?
the answer to your question is think about the room and application first
oh, that's not a definitive answer?
surprise, surprise
Since you've been bouncing around on this for a while now, you should probably through out all your notes, and take some time to decompress from the whole over-thinking process. Today is New-Years Day - read a book*, watch a couple of good movies, or football games, etc .
But seriously .....
I guess it all depends on what your definition/ expectation of "BIG" is all about - ie. image height/width or dynamics / bass extension (these do not always go together). Bipole can achieve a lot of benefits, but is not necessarily the right answer to a question whose parameters haven't been completely defined.
I can tell you that of all the quite different enclosure designs I've built or heard for the FE127E (at last count at least 8), the 2 with the "biggest" sound (in very different ways) would probably be the Harveys and the Milevas. I don't think it's any secret what for me are the areas in which I find the Fonken excels over these two designs. Further, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you should never overlook the significance of the speaker/ room interface, but it can be particularly important when dealing with designs utilizing single full range drivers of this size.
* recommended reading:
Daniel Levitin - "This is your Brain in Music" and "The World in Six Songs - How the Musical Brain Created Human Nature"
Hi Chris and Happy New Year!
When I was talking about "thinking big", I was referring to going with larger drivers/enclosures, not a big sound.
As for my expectations, I would like to have...
great imaging,
depth,
a wide, realistic sound stage,
decent usable output to 80Hz to 100Hz,
open, airy highs like I'm getting now,
a natural, detailed midrange,
and a nice, solid presence in the midbass
Bass reproduction isn't an issue as I will be using stereo subs eventually (GR Research Servo's) in small, sealed enclosures.
I don't need absolute crankability as far as output is concerned. ATM, I'm listening to Pink Floyd's DSOM on SACD and what I thought was loud is actually only peaking around 85-87dB at the listening position (about 9' away). However, I can't help but imagine the extra sensitivity of say the 126eN's (@ 93dB) would help in dynamics with low powered T-amps as well as keeping distortion levels down.
I listen to a lot of pipe organ music, but also a lot of mostly everything else as well, so they must be able to do well with all types of music.
In fact, I was just talking to Dave about this in an email a few moments ago and was asking him about Ed Shilling's "The Horns". These are actually an interesting design that I could probably appreciate in my room. I asked Dave if he has anything similar in a corner loaded design that I could possibly try. Obviously, I haven't looked at every single page and design yet on Dave's site(s).
Also, I plan on taking a week vacation in the near future. This time will be spent completely gutting the room this system is in so I can better place the speakers.
Charles, I'm quite familiar with both Ed's Horn and several similar configurations of DIY BLH designs, such as those posted on the Frugelhorn site. ( the original pair of FrugelHorn MkI are still sitting in the bull pen in listening room, and my wife has had a pair of Buschhorns with FE108E Sigmas upstairs for several years now)
They all work very well indeed, most particularly when your room allows for use of corners for completion of the final horn flare, which is very important not to just the extension of he lowest octaves, but also to the midbass weight, as well as soundstage dimensionality. If you can't take advantage of the corners, you're missing their best, but either way when augmented with powered woofer(s) they'll certainly provide a big sound, in most every sense of the word.
The FE126 has an edge over the FE127 in dynamics and more forward upper midrange presentation. FWIW, and I'd like to say "all things being equal" ( but since the driver's enclosure requirements are quite different, that's impossible ) I personally prefer the 127's overall tonal balance .
They all work very well indeed, most particularly when your room allows for use of corners for completion of the final horn flare, which is very important not to just the extension of he lowest octaves, but also to the midbass weight, as well as soundstage dimensionality. If you can't take advantage of the corners, you're missing their best, but either way when augmented with powered woofer(s) they'll certainly provide a big sound, in most every sense of the word.
The FE126 has an edge over the FE127 in dynamics and more forward upper midrange presentation. FWIW, and I'd like to say "all things being equal" ( but since the driver's enclosure requirements are quite different, that's impossible ) I personally prefer the 127's overall tonal balance .
chrisb said:
See, that's the other thing I'm faced with. I keep reading that the tonality of the 127 is better.
I guess my main concern is the top-end extension. I want it to be equal to that of the 103's which in no way need a tweeter at all. And if I can get away with it, I'd rather not use any BSC or SR with them.
Hmm... I still can't make up my mind.
Howdy chops, what I did was get a whole lot of drivers.
Right now, I have a pair of stock FE126E's, stock FE127E's and on e pair of planet10 eNaBLe'd FE127eN's. I am switching them out of various sealed and ported cabs.
That's really the only way to tell. The differences are huge and hard to summarize.
Right now, I have a pair of stock FE126E's, stock FE127E's and on e pair of planet10 eNaBLe'd FE127eN's. I am switching them out of various sealed and ported cabs.
That's really the only way to tell. The differences are huge and hard to summarize.
rjbond3rd said:
Howdy back to ya!
Say, you wouldn't happen to have a pair of stock FE103E's to compare the others to, would you? That would give me some kind of reference. However, if I decide on a horn design, I would be going with the 126eN's anyway, but that's all still up in the air ATM.
yup Charles, I'd say it's definitely time to chill a bit
got any left over turkey in the freezer? - maybe a nice big sandwich with cranberry sauce and a couple of your favorite adult beverages
- then a cozy nap by the fire 
but of course, accounting for the number of exchanges in conversation just today, that's a silly idea
Re :
Please keep in mind who could likely be the originator of a lot of those posts you're reading on the "tonality" of the 127 - and if I ever stated "better", that's a mistake - it's just that I prefer it.
In addition to the different tilt in their tonal balance, the increased dynamics of the 126 (which I personally sense as more than just the difference in raw sensitivity between the two ), also results in an overall shift forward of soundstage, and most particularly of centrally mixed images - call it "presence". To invoke the caveat once again, "in my small listening room" this is a bit too forward and makes the room feel much shallower. With the 127s, the presentation is more laid back, both in terms of dynamics and image location - resulting in the sense to me of a larger space.
And of course, put the EnAbled 127s in a synergistic system, with the right source material, and the room can loose even more of side and rear wall boundaries.
got any left over turkey in the freezer? - maybe a nice big sandwich with cranberry sauce and a couple of your favorite adult beverages
- then a cozy nap by the fire but of course, accounting for the number of exchanges in conversation just today, that's a silly idea
Re :
Please keep in mind who could likely be the originator of a lot of those posts you're reading on the "tonality" of the 127 - and if I ever stated "better", that's a mistake - it's just that I prefer it.
In addition to the different tilt in their tonal balance, the increased dynamics of the 126 (which I personally sense as more than just the difference in raw sensitivity between the two ), also results in an overall shift forward of soundstage, and most particularly of centrally mixed images - call it "presence". To invoke the caveat once again, "in my small listening room" this is a bit too forward and makes the room feel much shallower. With the 127s, the presentation is more laid back, both in terms of dynamics and image location - resulting in the sense to me of a larger space.
And of course, put the EnAbled 127s in a synergistic system, with the right source material, and the room can loose even more of side and rear wall boundaries.
The problem you get into, choosing the FE126, is that with the enclosures you need to get the best out of them, you start running into the same kinds of things that pooched Sachiko. Saburu is out for exactly the reason Sachiko is out. FH (a diy design inspired by the question "DIY design similar to hornshoppe?") would really like a pair of corners, and the height is fixed off the floor at a height you might find a little low (same applies to hornshoppe), leaving Austin A126. You still need at least a wall and you do need to get a bit further away.
Fonken is designed to work well as a nearfield monitor, and the 3.8 watt RH84 i primarily use with them, covers almost any sane level in my 24'x36' room (with a vault to 17'). The driver height above the ground is determined solely by the stands you use.
(my current personal preference too is towards the tonal balance of the FE127eN)
dave
Fonken is designed to work well as a nearfield monitor, and the 3.8 watt RH84 i primarily use with them, covers almost any sane level in my 24'x36' room (with a vault to 17'). The driver height above the ground is determined solely by the stands you use.
(my current personal preference too is towards the tonal balance of the FE127eN)
dave
Hi guys,
Chops, I'm afraid I don't have any FE103E's. If the Hornshoppe Horns are of interest, why not build the Frugel-Horns or a Buschhorn variant?
Mssr. Robert, yes let's get these drivers together for a shootout! I don't have any FE108E-Sigmas yet although I'm eyeballing them. I would love to haul 'em up north for a shootout but you'd have to be warned that my enclosures are no works of art. They are as rag-tag as it gets, sadly.
Chops, I'm afraid I don't have any FE103E's. If the Hornshoppe Horns are of interest, why not build the Frugel-Horns or a Buschhorn variant?
Mssr. Robert, yes let's get these drivers together for a shootout! I don't have any FE108E-Sigmas yet although I'm eyeballing them. I would love to haul 'em up north for a shootout but you'd have to be warned that my enclosures are no works of art. They are as rag-tag as it gets, sadly.
serenechaos said:
The proof of concept was a "stretched" BH v1 using all accessible external dimensions from the hornshoope. We changed the initial folding in the FH proto, and then Ron added his curved mouth/deflector magic. Even before that the proto FH was, to our ears, better than the Fat BH.
If youhave the room, A126 is better yet. We've yet to build a Saburu.
dave
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