DaveCan said:I'm very happy with my outdoor rated cat5, not doing the single strand thing though..
I've wondered how your basic coax cablevision wire would work?.. Seems to have a really well shielded internal single copper wire that could be used, and it's quite cheap.. Just leave the cable intact, expose just the single copper in the center, and hook up to speaker and amp.. Dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Most TV-coaxes will give a good result, but the one I stumbeled over is extreme. A tiny coax is not suited for wiring any floorstanding fullranges, you need more area for that.
I`m in a dialog with jims about sending him some lenghts; since christmas-mood is on the way I might add a mile or two so he could distribute?
PaleRider said:
Sigh. I thought it was obvious that I was simply pointing out with that post what a person would have to do to get 9ga because it's almost impossible to buy solid silver wire of that size. I wasn't discussing the supposed audibility or otherwise of single core vs. multiple.
You've missed the point. In some cases, you might actually want to put some series resistance on a driver to raise Qe a little, & slightly resistive wire is one way of achieving it. Remember, we're not talking about regular loudspeakers here -this is the forum for full-range single-drivers, which usually need handling in a different way to multiways.
Wrong. If your speakers are sufficiently sensitive & present a modest enough load to keep voltage drop for the desired cable-length within reasonable levels, then it would be perfectly acceptable. And that's assuming you don't want the wire to be a form of Eq, as noted above. Sometimes, you might. Not ideal for the current demands of, say, a 16Hz sub of course, but again, we're talking about FR drivers here, not huge bass-units.
One quick query -could you please explain what this 'distortion' business you have refered to in speaker wire is -if you've measured non-linear distortion from a piece of wire, you might be in line for a nobel prize for physics.
PaleRider said:
I believe you will find that the calculations are accurate.
The storage of energy within a capacitor is clearly defined as:
E (joules) = 1/2 C V^2. (wish I could use HTML here)
Note that I used that within the post. If you have an alternative equation, what is it??
The definition of one watt is one joule per second..again, if you have an alternative definition, what is it??
You have brought nothing to the table with that remark. Either retract it, or demonstrate where I have erred. (there is always a possibility that I messed up a decimal point or exponent, and if so please show where I erred.)
PaleRider said:
Note that I have not stated anything in that regard. The question was about capacitance, nothing more, nothing less. It would appear that you are providing an answer to something I have not addressed..
I gave a maximum calculated effect as a result of a geometric capacitance of 100 pf. To calculate the actual system effect would require knowledge of the wire insulation modulus, the impinging spl, the mass of the conductor per unit length, the wire bend modulus...all things which determine the actual wire spacing change vs frequency..
If one were to go to all that trouble, the end result no matter what it is, would never exceed the maximum value of energy change beyond the 100 pf capacitor.. By calculating the total system storage, it is clear that it is many orders of magnitude below the input energy to the system.
Cheers, John
Some cable manufacturers claimed their cable damping technique was helpful to sound quality. So, the original question was (paraphrased) "Can mechanical energy disturb a speaker signal".
Some posters thought this was an outright lie. I pointed out that mechanical energy does in fact generate a voltage in a cable with a signal running through it.
John was nice enough to run the math, which ended up showing the signal disturbance for 10 Watt, .5 mm displacement and a 100pF cable to be about 5e -9 Watts.
This is about 2,000,000,000 :1 for a speaker signal. I doubt it's audible but people can taste certain pollutants at a billion to 1 so I'll avoid any absolute statement about audibility. In any case the effect is very, very tiny.
No attempt was made to compare this value in level or importance to speaker cable resistance or speaker cable impedance.
Some posters thought this was an outright lie. I pointed out that mechanical energy does in fact generate a voltage in a cable with a signal running through it.
John was nice enough to run the math, which ended up showing the signal disturbance for 10 Watt, .5 mm displacement and a 100pF cable to be about 5e -9 Watts.
This is about 2,000,000,000 :1 for a speaker signal. I doubt it's audible but people can taste certain pollutants at a billion to 1 so I'll avoid any absolute statement about audibility. In any case the effect is very, very tiny.
No attempt was made to compare this value in level or importance to speaker cable resistance or speaker cable impedance.
there are easy tests to prove cables, especially speaker cables dont cause any audible microphony; run a long speaker cable thru another room and have someone yell into it (wack it, jump on it, fart on it etc.) while you listen to your sound system with no music playing. Do you hear anything? I didnt think so! Almost all these claims take basic physical phenomina and extrapolate them into the ridiculous. (alot of the "physics" people spout of hear comes from RF electronics, and has little bearing on audio wavelengths (in the hundreds of meters)) People who dont know how physics work shouldnt try to use it to explain things. And one more time: If you think you can hear the difference you could be a MILLIONARE.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science
PaleRider said:Ooops; I thought fullrange was fullrange
(my english)
Not an uncommon mistake -here full range refers to single-driver systems.
Anyway, all resistance in the powercircuit primarely does one thing; it kills dynamics. But your right, I better predict this to the multiway guys
...and why to multiway people exclusively?
When you say dynamics, to what are you referring? I imagine by this you are pointing out that if a high resistance wire is used, then the resistance may 'choke' or 'clip' the LF transients as it can't handle the larger current requirements of the lower frequencies. Correct? No rocket-science there; been known for decades. However, given that many FR drivers need some form of Eq if they are to be used effectively with the sort of super-low output impedance amplifiers most popular today, it's a worthwhile tradeoff. Besides, nobody would buy FR units for their LF transient handling -very few have sufficient excursion to handle large LF dynamic swings at ~realistic levels without compressing to some extent.
BTW, any response to my question about this distortion you've been talking about that is caused by wire?
cbdb said:
Just look at this cable-thread or any cable-manufacturers argumentation: they all are focusing on capasitanse or inductanse, skin-theories and funny twisting while the one thing that really matters is to keep resistanse as low as possible and keep the signal clean.
Guess you know you`re doing that by keeping the wires as short as possible and by extending area. A point many still aren`t aware off is that even if a huge number of hair-thin conductors might add upp to a certain area they will give a big loss in both dynamics and sound quality compared to a solid wire.
With super-efficient fullrange drivers driven by tiny tube amps you`ll never need real thick wires as they do with Solid State amps and multiway speakers.
PaleRider said:
Really? Why? Evidence please (preferably not of the 'go & try it & listen' variety. That's not evidence).
BTW, you still haven't answered my repeatedly asked question about your claims that wire causes non-linear distortion of a signal passing through it. Please could you explain this, with evidence to support your theory.
Scott my friend, you will never win on this subject.
IMHO a strong belief always wins over logic or science.
So buy mega$ wire, mass load with smooth river rocks ,sacrifice a virgin (getting hard to find nowdays) and enter a state of Zen before doing a subjective evaluation. Only then will the cost/effort be apparent.
Myself i would rather approach any question from a technical POV. But thats just me.
ron
IMHO a strong belief always wins over logic or science.
So buy mega$ wire, mass load with smooth river rocks ,sacrifice a virgin (getting hard to find nowdays) and enter a state of Zen before doing a subjective evaluation. Only then will the cost/effort be apparent.
Myself i would rather approach any question from a technical POV. But thats just me.
ron
Scottmoose said:That's two of us mate, but we could be becoming dinosaurs because of it.
Thinking positive, I suppose the up-side is that dinosaurs ruled the planet for the best part of a couple of hundred million years, so there may yet be hope.
As I watch the dinosaurs feeding at my bird feeder, I contemplate that it is the little guys that make it in the end. T-rex is gone, by 65M years later, the sparrow is still here.
Bob
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