It'll be difficult to find 8" pro woofers that go lower.
You're trading extension for sensitivity, beyond 50Hz you'd be looking at HiFi woofers.
Mind you since you're doubling area and halving impedance you could gain as much as 6dB so something like this might be usable:
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 8BR40/N 8" speaker - Beyma 8BR40N 100 watt 8" woofer for all hi-fi and studio monitor bass speakers. Beyma 8BR40N and other Beyma 8" speakers here.
You're trading extension for sensitivity, beyond 50Hz you'd be looking at HiFi woofers.
Mind you since you're doubling area and halving impedance you could gain as much as 6dB so something like this might be usable:
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 8BR40/N 8" speaker - Beyma 8BR40N 100 watt 8" woofer for all hi-fi and studio monitor bass speakers. Beyma 8BR40N and other Beyma 8" speakers here.
Ok, let's turn to a ten or a twelve to anchor the bottom. I want to keep efficiency as high as the tweeter measures, once I get the microphone. Right now, however they came about it, and if they were not exaggerating it, the speaker is at 96db efficiency. Please educate me ... The tweeter would be the one which always sets the sensitivity upper limit, since you pad it down to the woofer, correct ?
So we should be able to assume the tweeter is at least 96db efficient.
If I am going to use Pro drivers, then I am going for efficiency. Otherwise I would use hifi drivers.
Let me go ahead say this. The ONLY reason I am willing to buy drivers for a Pro 3 way at this time, is because I own a 4x8 MiniDsp which I am going to use to learn what different things do to the sound, as I make changes to the xover.
I am NOT trying to start extra projects. My plan has been to do the active with some speaker or another, as a learning tool. Since I already have the tweeters, I may as well make it this one. My main focus is learning to design passive speakers well. I just see this project as an extension.
I fell in love with the sound of the Topping TP-60 recently. So I already had plans on buying some Tripath boards, and I'm only just trying to find out what it will take to build an amp that sounds as good or better, in a DIY way. More power would be nice also, than the TP-60 has.
This active project should help as I learn to build passive networks, with the help of a kind forum member who has volunteered his kelp.
I am NOT trying to start extra projects. My plan has been to do the active with some speaker or another, as a learning tool. Since I already have the tweeters, I may as well make it this one. My main focus is learning to design passive speakers well. I just see this project as an extension.
I fell in love with the sound of the Topping TP-60 recently. So I already had plans on buying some Tripath boards, and I'm only just trying to find out what it will take to build an amp that sounds as good or better, in a DIY way. More power would be nice also, than the TP-60 has.
This active project should help as I learn to build passive networks, with the help of a kind forum member who has volunteered his kelp.
Yes, it is usually the tweeter that gets padded down for a number of reasons:
Tweeters are easier to make loud/sensitive/efficient, they are cheaper and easier to pad and overall you waste less power.
There is always the compromise between low Fs and high sensitivity.
A quick glance at the numbers of a few pro manufacturers shows that if you want to stay at around 96dB/1W/1m around 48-50Hz is as low as you can get out of a 10" and 42-45Hz from a 12".
With 2 of those B&Cs you'd get extension like a 10 and total Sd close to a 12" with a narrower front.
You have got to work out for yourself where in this Land of Compromise you want to plant your flag but that is easier said than done.
Tweeters are easier to make loud/sensitive/efficient, they are cheaper and easier to pad and overall you waste less power.
There is always the compromise between low Fs and high sensitivity.
A quick glance at the numbers of a few pro manufacturers shows that if you want to stay at around 96dB/1W/1m around 48-50Hz is as low as you can get out of a 10" and 42-45Hz from a 12".
With 2 of those B&Cs you'd get extension like a 10 and total Sd close to a 12" with a narrower front.
You have got to work out for yourself where in this Land of Compromise you want to plant your flag but that is easier said than done.
I'm thinking 42-45Hz from a 12" sounds better. I'll just build a pyramid shaped tower.
Here are a few possibilities:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12HP1010
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
B&C Speakers
B&C Speakers
B&C Speakers
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12HP1010
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
B&C Speakers
B&C Speakers
B&C Speakers
Just finished speaking with ESS again. The 10" replacement woofer available online, has a serious typo. He says his company makes the IMPROVED driver, and that it is 96.0 db efficiency. Now we have that strangeness solved. He also told me, my smaller, monopole ESS tweeter is 94.8 db efficient.
Now we know more about this mess
Now we know more about this mess
You bet. Now we know more about what exactly they were thinking when designing it. But, if the xover takes it down in sensitivity, how can the speakers which used that driver have been rated at 94 and 96db ? While the manufacturer's often fudged specs, consensus on the web seems to agree they were VERY efficient speakers. I know they can bust my windows with only 50 actual watts of Sure board amp power.
The woofer has been chosen. This will get me to 42hz ats the F3, has high efficiency, and needs a 3.43 cu ft enclosure. Which is as large as I care to go.
Eminence Delta-12LFA 12" Low Frequency Driver
And I like the FR of this midrange as well. So now we have our drivers chosen for active Emminent Heils.
Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Speaker/Driver
Eminence Delta-12LFA 12" Low Frequency Driver
And I like the FR of this midrange as well. So now we have our drivers chosen for active Emminent Heils.
Eminence Alphalite 6A 6" Neo Midrange Speaker/Driver
These tweeters are actually very very nice but they have some limitations. There distortion goes skyrocket high below 2,5 - 3kHz. I have a pair of those, well actually the even older version of them pictured in the flyer some pages before. I use them with 60db/oct filters at 3500Hz and that's about stretching it's usefull range. They are also very depended on amplification. With a good SET amp they really sing. A good class A transistor amp will do but I had less good results with Tripath, and gainclone amps on them. I use them with some Naksa70 amps wich give almost as good resuslts as my 300B set amps but run cooler.
So using them with the right matching amp in it's usefull range I prefered them above a pair of Raal 140-15D tweeters and above the big Heill AMT's. These have better topend then the bigger AMT's, they sound more lifelike then the Raals and they have much better vertical dispersion then both of them. They are more dynamic then a pair of Eton AMT's I had in the past. But don't tell anyone, prices might go up on ebay.
Use them too low and with the wrong amp however they let your ears bleed and can be prety nasty. They are on the edge of brightness wich makes them lively so carefull implementation is key here. Succes with your project, enjoy them.
So using them with the right matching amp in it's usefull range I prefered them above a pair of Raal 140-15D tweeters and above the big Heill AMT's. These have better topend then the bigger AMT's, they sound more lifelike then the Raals and they have much better vertical dispersion then both of them. They are more dynamic then a pair of Eton AMT's I had in the past. But don't tell anyone, prices might go up on ebay.
Use them too low and with the wrong amp however they let your ears bleed and can be prety nasty. They are on the edge of brightness wich makes them lively so carefull implementation is key here. Succes with your project, enjoy them.
Yes !!! I've been really hoping someone who actually has intimate knowledge of these would post. Thank you !
I'm surprised to hear of the distortion, when ESS crossed them at 2400. I thought it was the woofer playing too high, which added some harshness. But crossing them at 3500hz @ 68db oct filters sounds insane
I am very new to this. But I would think that would introduce all kinds of problems, with a filter that steep. Did you overlap the woofer any to assist the steep xover point ?
Surprised to hear about your results with Tripath, I find Tripath to sound somewhat tube like, with the FR of solid state. Best of both.
Liking them better than RAALs, which I have owned before, and do again. This has me PRAYING the higher xover is magical, because these are indeed great sounding ..... But, I will be surprised if I share your opinion. Pleasantly however, if so.
As far as more dynamic than statement .... Just crazy dynamic and fast sounding. They SO remind me of good electrostatic highs. They sound "organic" , if that makes sense. Vivid would be my word if I wrote for Stereophile
After learning I should cross the tweeter higher, I decided to choose a midrange with slightly better FR up to 3500hz. So out with the Eminence, and in with Faitalpro.
FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm
FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm
Hi Flaxxer,
1) It always suprised me why ESS would use this tweeter this low. I think it has several reasons. First there are costs offcoarse. They wanted a fullrange speaker in the affordable range wich in that time ment a big woofer and a tweeter. Other compagnies did the same thing. Little was known about power response etc. .Second is that measuring equipment in that time cost about as much as a new car. If you also wanted distortion measurements it costs about the same as a new house. Not many compagnies had this kind of equipment back then. Remember this was the 70's. Nowadays a much more enhanced measuring system then was available back then cost as much as a cup of coffee so to speak.
2) Like you said it right, I liked them better then the Raals, there is no "absolute" better or worse here. It's all about system matching. Personally I could not live with the limited vertical dispersion of the Raals, even with the foam plugs on them.
3) Yes, organic and vivid would be the right words to subscribe them. I would say they have a character that's best described as a mix between a ribbon tweeter and a compression driver. Compared to the Raals voices sound more recognizable wich is very nice. The Raals might be better in absolute resolution but they also sound a bit like distilled water to me. The little AMT's make listening to music more fun and that's the most important parameter to me. Others might like the Raals better. Curious what you will find about them compared to the Raals. Let us know.
4) The Tripath I used was a Trends TA10.1 wich sounds thin. It lacks the body these tweeters need. Other Tripaths might sound completely different offcoarse.
5) The 60db/oct filter I'm using are FIR filters (DEQX). Thes have no phase shift and sound more like 6db/oct butterworth filters. No overlap with the midrange makes the distance bewtween mid and tweeter less important. If you are using a minidsp just try anything from 24 to 48db/oct linkwitz filters.
Have you considered making the midrange dipole? The AMT are air velocity transducers just like dipole loudspeakers. I find the combination of dipole mid with AMT to be very good.
1) It always suprised me why ESS would use this tweeter this low. I think it has several reasons. First there are costs offcoarse. They wanted a fullrange speaker in the affordable range wich in that time ment a big woofer and a tweeter. Other compagnies did the same thing. Little was known about power response etc. .Second is that measuring equipment in that time cost about as much as a new car. If you also wanted distortion measurements it costs about the same as a new house. Not many compagnies had this kind of equipment back then. Remember this was the 70's. Nowadays a much more enhanced measuring system then was available back then cost as much as a cup of coffee so to speak.
2) Like you said it right, I liked them better then the Raals, there is no "absolute" better or worse here. It's all about system matching. Personally I could not live with the limited vertical dispersion of the Raals, even with the foam plugs on them.
3) Yes, organic and vivid would be the right words to subscribe them. I would say they have a character that's best described as a mix between a ribbon tweeter and a compression driver. Compared to the Raals voices sound more recognizable wich is very nice. The Raals might be better in absolute resolution but they also sound a bit like distilled water to me. The little AMT's make listening to music more fun and that's the most important parameter to me. Others might like the Raals better. Curious what you will find about them compared to the Raals. Let us know.
4) The Tripath I used was a Trends TA10.1 wich sounds thin. It lacks the body these tweeters need. Other Tripaths might sound completely different offcoarse.
5) The 60db/oct filter I'm using are FIR filters (DEQX). Thes have no phase shift and sound more like 6db/oct butterworth filters. No overlap with the midrange makes the distance bewtween mid and tweeter less important. If you are using a minidsp just try anything from 24 to 48db/oct linkwitz filters.
Have you considered making the midrange dipole? The AMT are air velocity transducers just like dipole loudspeakers. I find the combination of dipole mid with AMT to be very good.
Thanks, Sjef. I truly appreciate you taking the time. You gave my project a great boost, with all of the new information and advice.
If I were in Amsterdam today, I would buy you a cup of ..... Wait, what is it they sell again in coffee shops over there ?
I don't have the listening space for dipole. But I think I will enjoy these very well, regardless. It's SO ironic these were dropped off on my porch. I had been posting on the forum, how I eventually would like to build a pair of ultimate speakers for heavier music styles (metal, hard rock, etc). Something with great speed and dynamics, while NOT sounding PA like. I was looking at all kind of horn and waveguide kits. I think I found just what I was looking for, without even trying.
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