dB Wars or How To Sell Your Speakers Easier
I was curious so had a peek at ESS web site finding following info on ESS 10" factory woofer that I think matters:
Impedance: 4 ohms, Re: 3.4 ohms
Power: 80 watts RMS, 160 watts max
Sensitivity: 90.6 dB, 1 watt, 1 meter
So I went further searching for parameters and found these at PE:
(Fs)27 Hz
(Re)3.4 ohms
(Le)1.2 mH
(Qms)4.1
(Qes)0.54
(Qts)0.48
(Vas)1.75 ft.³
(Xmax)4 mm
90.6 dB 1W/1m
which gave me following sensitivities using a spreadsheet:
SPL 1W/1m= 84,51 dB
SPL 2.83V/1m=88.21 dB
Now, that is contradicting published specs and we know when you put these babies into an enclosure, the situation does not get any better.
Flaxxer, you have found info stating sensitivity being 96 dB, and modern version of it called 10" AMT Series Speaker is also said to be 96 dB sensitive.
I was curious so had a peek at ESS web site finding following info on ESS 10" factory woofer that I think matters:
Impedance: 4 ohms, Re: 3.4 ohms
Power: 80 watts RMS, 160 watts max
Sensitivity: 90.6 dB, 1 watt, 1 meter
So I went further searching for parameters and found these at PE:
(Fs)27 Hz
(Re)3.4 ohms
(Le)1.2 mH
(Qms)4.1
(Qes)0.54
(Qts)0.48
(Vas)1.75 ft.³
(Xmax)4 mm
90.6 dB 1W/1m
which gave me following sensitivities using a spreadsheet:
SPL 1W/1m= 84,51 dB
SPL 2.83V/1m=88.21 dB
Now, that is contradicting published specs and we know when you put these babies into an enclosure, the situation does not get any better.
Flaxxer, you have found info stating sensitivity being 96 dB, and modern version of it called 10" AMT Series Speaker is also said to be 96 dB sensitive.
Are you sure, Lojzek ? Because here are my sources :
ESS Tempest LS 4 - Manual - Loudspeaker System - HiFi Engine
ESS LS4
ESS Tempest LS 4 - Manual - Loudspeaker System - HiFi Engine
ESS LS4
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This is straight from the Owner's Manual !
[/url]ESS by Cullen Graham, on Flickr[/IMG]
[/url]tempest by Cullen Graham, on Flickr[/IMG]
You might want to fix the passive radiators and see what that gets you... 35Hz @ -3dB is very good performance in fact. That woofer has pretty high BL I suspect based on the quoted gauss in the gap, efficiency was quite high. This was a good quality driver.
You can't make any assessment of their performance without fixing the radiators.
You can't make any assessment of their performance without fixing the radiators.
So several of you posted I should listen to the speakers before doing anything to them. So I blocked the holes for the non existent passive radiators, added the correct amount of polyfill, and listened.
[/url]20180117_191412 by Cullen Graham, on Flickr[/IMG]
Nice tweeters. midrange is rough. It's kind of shouty a bit. Not terribly. But I know Eriksquires was probably dead on, when he suggested it be turned into a 3 way with the Faitalpro 5" midrange. I think it NEEDS it, or a better woofer.
Nice tweeters. midrange is rough. It's kind of shouty a bit. Not terribly. But I know Eriksquires was probably dead on, when he suggested it be turned into a 3 way with the Faitalpro 5" midrange. I think it NEEDS it, or a better woofer.
The bass was surprisingly good, with the cabinets made into temporary sealed enclosures. The midrange was a bit shouty though. Sounded like it isn't happy playing the nuances of midrange very well.
THEY PLAY LOUDLY AS HELL !!!!
The woofers are not correctly loaded and their LF output is dropping significantly below a couple of hundred Hz. You might need better woofers or a midrange but until you load the woofers correctly the tuning and FR will be way off.
I can well believe they beam in the midrange given their size.
I can well believe they beam in the midrange given their size.
The cabinets are a joke. 3/4 PARTICLE board.
ZERO bracing. They do have genuine wool padding lining the insides. I added a layer of 2" denim insulation on the bottom, and behind the woofer, and added needed polyfill. It had poly from the factory, but it was a hard ball. They never fluffed it out loosely at all.
ZERO bracing. They do have genuine wool padding lining the insides. I added a layer of 2" denim insulation on the bottom, and behind the woofer, and added needed polyfill. It had poly from the factory, but it was a hard ball. They never fluffed it out loosely at all.
FR may be off. But they are playing down properly to at least 40 hz in my room, measured. So I am not sure what is up with the passive being needed or used for only 5 more hz extension.
Then again, I added probably another 1.5 lbs of polyfill. They barely had any at all. Adding the poly may have fooled the woofer into playing much lower when sealed. I dunno.
I am sure that specs of an ESS 10" 689-1012 woofer that are available at PE now (ESS has not revealed TS parameters needed to calculate sensitivity) can not produce published ESS sensitivity of the modern version. What is your woofer like is not clear from this thread. There is no photo of these from the back side and no impedance and voice coil measurement.
I have no doubt that tweeter is loud.
no(efficiency)=9.78*10^(-10)*Vas*Fs^3/Qes
SPL(1W/1m)= 112.2+10*log(no)
SPL(2.83V/1m)=SPL(1W/1m)+10*log(8/Re)
Walmart and Simply Speakers sell this unit for $119 a piece.
Try to calculate data for a B&C NW 64 that is stated to be 96 dB sensitive.
That is a different woofer, Lojzek. I spoke with ESS yesterday, and they used about 6 different woofers. All with slightly different sensitivities, from 92db to 96. The one you listed above, was ONLY used in the AMT Monitor. It was a different speaker than the Tempest series. And the Tempest Monitor used a different woofer than the LS4, and the LS5 used a different woofer, and so on.
The one you linked looks just like the ones I have, except mine have grey baskets, and do not have quick connect push terminals.
I'm thinking I will turn this into a three way with a 5" midrange.
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Now, I do not understand speaker designing yet. I'm sure trying! But I can tell you the woofer you linked above, Lojzek, can NOT be used in any of the offerings from ESS which use the monopole, round tweeter.
Because ALL of those speakers had higher sensitivity than 90db.
If this helps, I was told by ESS, they changed model numbers for the same speakers over and over. through the years.
My Tempest speakers, became the Performance Series. ZERO changes, except for the name. And here are the listed specs from ESS on the Performance Series speakers ...
http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/userpics/10007/ESS%20Performance%20Series%20Speakers%20Owners%20Manual.pdf
ALL of them are well above 90db efficiency. So I don't know. But I do know that 90db efficient woofer won't give me a 96db efficient speaker system.
Also, that woofer's upper FR only goes to 2000. Making a 2500 hz xover a bit of a stretch. No wonder vocals sound shouty.
Because ALL of those speakers had higher sensitivity than 90db.
If this helps, I was told by ESS, they changed model numbers for the same speakers over and over. through the years.
My Tempest speakers, became the Performance Series. ZERO changes, except for the name. And here are the listed specs from ESS on the Performance Series speakers ...
http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/userpics/10007/ESS%20Performance%20Series%20Speakers%20Owners%20Manual.pdf
ALL of them are well above 90db efficiency. So I don't know. But I do know that 90db efficient woofer won't give me a 96db efficient speaker system.
Also, that woofer's upper FR only goes to 2000. Making a 2500 hz xover a bit of a stretch. No wonder vocals sound shouty.
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Flaxxer, try asking ESS labs how come their woofer at PE, once available, is specified as 90.6 dB/1W when we know that this is not possible, according to the previous formula. And why is it that one can't seem to find any lab test conditions and measurements of any sort, not even TS parameters for the drive units?
Attachments
I will ask the owner, and report back. As far as there not being much documentation from ESS, it seems the original owners were VERY shady, and about the fast buck, and very poor business planners. I have NO clue if they even knew about things like baffle step, or diffraction.
There are several here who want to see me restore the speakers as original. But I am not happy with the midrange, and believe Eriksquires was correct when suggesting adding a 5" midrange and making it into a 3 way.
But the Faital pro isn't efficient enough to use.
Just curious what your opinions are on this idea? Adding a midrange and making it a 3 way ?
But the Faital pro isn't efficient enough to use.
Just curious what your opinions are on this idea? Adding a midrange and making it a 3 way ?
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