You do not hate to disagree dear Todd
If you really had that hate to disagree, you would no disagree into the forum.... there's no one with a gun into your head forcing you to say those things...your disagreement and support of Nordic curve is your point of view and you are supporting the curve existence when i want to erase it from there.
So, if you made it, and made it here, is because is pleasant to you...well.... all of us have the dark side... the sadic side...i am not perfect too.
I do not like big condensers, i feel them ugly as a hell...in special when not needed, also i do not like strips into the boards, seems polution, visual polution to me, and that curve is a scandall.
But.... boards are not made for me, it is beeing made for forum folks, and i do not know what they feel about.... all i know is that they like beauty, i could not see someone dreaming to find an ugly wife, to buy an ugly car...everybody loves beauty.
I am defending what i feel as pretty, the way i believe people understand beauty, i have learned that beauty has connection to simetry, ballance into the image (if the board is a ship, will not sink because too much weigth into one side compared to other)..and the use of square or rounded.... both do not goes together very well...you see... cars goes rounded and them goes to square, both together are less common and less sold...but this is subjective, you may feel the opposite.
I think amplifier is to produce sound....beauty is secondary, not very important to me.... i believe this need is for sissies and something alike...BUT.... you can see by the constructions made into the forum, things built, the beautifull gainclones made, the importance they give to good material, good wood, aluminium brushed panels, golden screws, special feet to the enclosure...well..people likes beauty and they prefer to have things pretty...i do not mind.... things i do (FOR ME) are ugly, i do not mind..have to sound pretty, i do not make them to show to friends, even knowing they prefer to watch than to listen (they are not audiophiles, not fanatics).
The Precision I is for forum folks, and for free...have to be nice looking, and we are working for that, into that direction, to be excelent sounding and pretty to watch.
2 Persons that never had interest into the Precision, and one of them already designing his own amplifier, they turn so impressive with your schematic, perfect work you made, that decided to build.... they knew the Precision schematic since September, and had never interest...when watched the beauty of Nordic boards and your beautifull schematic, they decided to build....you see... beauty is important and i am defending this, because boards are not only to me..they are for forum people, and they love beauty.
You get married with a lovely woman, she flyes as fligth attendant, and was selected to fly because beautifull, simetrical face, nice smile...and you love the fact she is beautifull...so...this matters too.
regards,
Carlos
If you really had that hate to disagree, you would no disagree into the forum.... there's no one with a gun into your head forcing you to say those things...your disagreement and support of Nordic curve is your point of view and you are supporting the curve existence when i want to erase it from there.
So, if you made it, and made it here, is because is pleasant to you...well.... all of us have the dark side... the sadic side...i am not perfect too.
I do not like big condensers, i feel them ugly as a hell...in special when not needed, also i do not like strips into the boards, seems polution, visual polution to me, and that curve is a scandall.
But.... boards are not made for me, it is beeing made for forum folks, and i do not know what they feel about.... all i know is that they like beauty, i could not see someone dreaming to find an ugly wife, to buy an ugly car...everybody loves beauty.
I am defending what i feel as pretty, the way i believe people understand beauty, i have learned that beauty has connection to simetry, ballance into the image (if the board is a ship, will not sink because too much weigth into one side compared to other)..and the use of square or rounded.... both do not goes together very well...you see... cars goes rounded and them goes to square, both together are less common and less sold...but this is subjective, you may feel the opposite.
I think amplifier is to produce sound....beauty is secondary, not very important to me.... i believe this need is for sissies and something alike...BUT.... you can see by the constructions made into the forum, things built, the beautifull gainclones made, the importance they give to good material, good wood, aluminium brushed panels, golden screws, special feet to the enclosure...well..people likes beauty and they prefer to have things pretty...i do not mind.... things i do (FOR ME) are ugly, i do not mind..have to sound pretty, i do not make them to show to friends, even knowing they prefer to watch than to listen (they are not audiophiles, not fanatics).
The Precision I is for forum folks, and for free...have to be nice looking, and we are working for that, into that direction, to be excelent sounding and pretty to watch.
2 Persons that never had interest into the Precision, and one of them already designing his own amplifier, they turn so impressive with your schematic, perfect work you made, that decided to build.... they knew the Precision schematic since September, and had never interest...when watched the beauty of Nordic boards and your beautifull schematic, they decided to build....you see... beauty is important and i am defending this, because boards are not only to me..they are for forum people, and they love beauty.
You get married with a lovely woman, she flyes as fligth attendant, and was selected to fly because beautifull, simetrical face, nice smile...and you love the fact she is beautifull...so...this matters too.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
)
I have only small "condenser" Max..ahahahaha..those huge things
bother me a lot (envy).... of course projection....or..... you are making transference of your own worries about size.
ahahahahahh!
regards,
Carlos
......................................................................................................
Todd
Me too!..... i'm glad they have curves, girls not nice when flat.... but flat in one side and curved the other is "scandall"...
ahahahahah!
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
Nordic
Are you following the schematic?
There are 4 big condensers, and the schematic ask for 2 units fo 1000uf (smaller than those ones) and 2 units of 220uf, also very smaller than the other ones.
You know i use to talk what i feel...i am not happy with those huge condensers....board is very good, touching the excelence.... 99.999..... the rest....0.001 is because of big condensers (today).
Are not those ones too much fat?
I hate fat things (except myself)
Ahahahahaha!
regards,
Carlos
bother me a lot (envy).... of course projection....or..... you are making transference of your own worries about size.
ahahahahahh!
regards,
Carlos
......................................................................................................
Todd
Me too!..... i'm glad they have curves, girls not nice when flat.... but flat in one side and curved the other is "scandall"...
ahahahahah!
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
Nordic
Are you following the schematic?
There are 4 big condensers, and the schematic ask for 2 units fo 1000uf (smaller than those ones) and 2 units of 220uf, also very smaller than the other ones.
You know i use to talk what i feel...i am not happy with those huge condensers....board is very good, touching the excelence.... 99.999..... the rest....0.001 is because of big condensers (today).
Are not those ones too much fat?
I hate fat things (except myself)
Ahahahahaha!
regards,
Carlos
Audio quality is already excelent, and huge condensers will not add nothing to the
audio....but can make the amplifier loose a lot of Elegance.
Smaller condensers gives more "Class" to the way an amplifier looks.
Image proportion, ratio...alike someone that have pants number 32 and use pants number 50!... the bigger one seems oversized to the user.
Well.... i have already tried to "sell" my opinions about..... this is Democracy, so, be confortable to decide.
My vote was more than clear.
Sorry the image quality, was made only to give you an idea of how may look with smaller condensers.
regards,
Carlos
audio....but can make the amplifier loose a lot of Elegance.
Smaller condensers gives more "Class" to the way an amplifier looks.
Image proportion, ratio...alike someone that have pants number 32 and use pants number 50!... the bigger one seems oversized to the user.
Well.... i have already tried to "sell" my opinions about..... this is Democracy, so, be confortable to decide.
My vote was more than clear.
Sorry the image quality, was made only to give you an idea of how may look with smaller condensers.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Well.... you see that some folks loves the big ones.
Ahahahaha!
I will let Nordic decide this stuff, as you can see there are folks, alike Nordic himself, also some Nordic friends that felt impressed with those big "cans" into the board..... hummmm.... Freud can explain that need of big condensers.... also people that hate that too.
Our François perceive it as interesting.
Those condensers, if big, do not bother audio too, can even produce a reserve of energy that can be interesting during losses of main power, fast interruptions or lower voltage.
I felt them ugly.... as a hell... but as i said, those boards to be made are not for me.
I hope those folks, the ones loves big protude condensers (ahahahah!) never forget assembled boards over the chair and sit over by accident...can be painfull..ahahahahah!
Let it be.
regards,
Carlos
Ahahahaha!
I will let Nordic decide this stuff, as you can see there are folks, alike Nordic himself, also some Nordic friends that felt impressed with those big "cans" into the board..... hummmm.... Freud can explain that need of big condensers.... also people that hate that too.
Our François perceive it as interesting.
Those condensers, if big, do not bother audio too, can even produce a reserve of energy that can be interesting during losses of main power, fast interruptions or lower voltage.
I felt them ugly.... as a hell... but as i said, those boards to be made are not for me.
I hope those folks, the ones loves big protude condensers (ahahahah!) never forget assembled boards over the chair and sit over by accident...can be painfull..ahahahahah!
Let it be.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
I'm afraid you are going to learn to live with 1 inch capacitors...
I hate empty space on a board... I made provision for 2 sets of caps so people can choose to use just one, or even paralleling 2 lower values... Nothing prevents you from useing small caps there... and nothing prevents me from useing 100V caps... it does not affect board size.... so we must all live hapilly with the compromises...
My experience with the large caps has been nothing but positive...
Oh and damn, the PC rebooted during the night, and I am back at the previous step... never saved the last changes... stupid auto update.
The lenght of the board is 20cm, which is the max length I can fit on my heatsink... I don't think a smaller sink is viable for this amp anyway...
I hate empty space on a board... I made provision for 2 sets of caps so people can choose to use just one, or even paralleling 2 lower values... Nothing prevents you from useing small caps there... and nothing prevents me from useing 100V caps... it does not affect board size.... so we must all live hapilly with the compromises...
My experience with the large caps has been nothing but positive...
Oh and damn, the PC rebooted during the night, and I am back at the previous step... never saved the last changes... stupid auto update.
The lenght of the board is 20cm, which is the max length I can fit on my heatsink... I don't think a smaller sink is viable for this amp anyway...
Dear Carlos,
Some times there is a good reason way elcaps are so big, but in many cases not many people bother to calculate the optimum value for subcircuits where they are used. The easy way is to use the biggest possible in the hope that is functionally enough. There's nothing wrong with this approach if size and cost don't matter.
IMHO, there is only one onboard subcircuit place where big and fast capacitor is paramount in a class AB amplifier - decouplers for output stage to ground, necessary to close locally fast rectified output stage currents, far away for other stages and main starground.
Cold regards
Mihai
Some times there is a good reason way elcaps are so big, but in many cases not many people bother to calculate the optimum value for subcircuits where they are used. The easy way is to use the biggest possible in the hope that is functionally enough. There's nothing wrong with this approach if size and cost don't matter.
IMHO, there is only one onboard subcircuit place where big and fast capacitor is paramount in a class AB amplifier - decouplers for output stage to ground, necessary to close locally fast rectified output stage currents, far away for other stages and main starground.
Cold regards
Mihai
Large caps on the PCB cause me concern. I like to have my amps protected from the PSU with a fuse. If you put large caps next to the output devices, you effectively have bypassed the fuses. I imagine 10,000uF /100V cap will have enough energy to alter the structure of the silicon in most output devices.
I guess there is an optimum value for a rail decoupling caps and although I haven't done any calculations, I'd guess it is closer to 100uF than 10,000uF.
I have another suspicison that tests that prove large caps work better have not been carried out in the proper manner. You cannot just replace 100uF decoupling caps with 10,000uF cap and say it is better. You need to move the 10,000uF from the PSU to the decoupling position. This will prove that its not just increasing the PSU capacitiance that is helping.
Also, having large caps the amp PCB effectively creates a CRC network, with the power leads being the R. As we know, CRC filtering improves the filtering of PSUs. So, stick the big caps back on the PSU and include a resistance between caps.
BTW: I haven't done the tests, to prove any of this one way or another.
regards
I guess there is an optimum value for a rail decoupling caps and although I haven't done any calculations, I'd guess it is closer to 100uF than 10,000uF.
I have another suspicison that tests that prove large caps work better have not been carried out in the proper manner. You cannot just replace 100uF decoupling caps with 10,000uF cap and say it is better. You need to move the 10,000uF from the PSU to the decoupling position. This will prove that its not just increasing the PSU capacitiance that is helping.
Also, having large caps the amp PCB effectively creates a CRC network, with the power leads being the R. As we know, CRC filtering improves the filtering of PSUs. So, stick the big caps back on the PSU and include a resistance between caps.
BTW: I haven't done the tests, to prove any of this one way or another.
regards
I leave it up to your own discretion which caps to use... the space is available... regardless of what I do...
Those little 100nf caps from base to base, leads to a bit of a layout headache compared to more minimalist approaches...
As far as the fuses... it has been my experience (plural) that the amp will only blow one fuse if agitated enough... which leaves the other fuse to provide a nice offset of about 16VDC....
BUT the amp includes protection to disengage the load under error conditions...
What Wattage should the emmitor resistors be?
Those little 100nf caps from base to base, leads to a bit of a layout headache compared to more minimalist approaches...
As far as the fuses... it has been my experience (plural) that the amp will only blow one fuse if agitated enough... which leaves the other fuse to provide a nice offset of about 16VDC....
BUT the amp includes protection to disengage the load under error conditions...
What Wattage should the emmitor resistors be?
1 watt for 0.22 ohms resistances and 2 watts for 0.47 ohms resistances
Must be soldered distant from the board (minimum 4 milimeters)... they may behave alike fuse if some transistor goes shorted.
Each one of them will be crossed by less than 1 ampere with the amplifier producing full undistorted power.
Even some small resistances in parallel will make the job there... i mean 2 resistances of 1 ohms in parallel, for instance.
Also can be increased in wattage if the board designer wants.
regards,
Carlos
Must be soldered distant from the board (minimum 4 milimeters)... they may behave alike fuse if some transistor goes shorted.
Each one of them will be crossed by less than 1 ampere with the amplifier producing full undistorted power.
Even some small resistances in parallel will make the job there... i mean 2 resistances of 1 ohms in parallel, for instance.
Also can be increased in wattage if the board designer wants.
regards,
Carlos
I would be very happy to see Precision I board using smaller condensers
Not only into size, but also into capacitance if needed.
470uf to the output is enougth
220uf to the left rail side is enougth too.
Insulations to 63 volts only.
Of course, dear nephew, if you like them, and prefer to use big condensers, let room and holes into the boards to the ones you want, but do not paint references into the board, those with circles as they are not standard into the schematic.
Do not mark cicles, or if you mark them, make it to schematic values, beeing the output transistors ones modified to 470uf, or 1000uf, rigth now, if needed to be that small, to reduce the size into the board.
The standard offered board must be pretty and using schematic values.... of course you can provide room to the ones you want as option, but not as standard...even 3D demonstration image must have smaller condensers.
Order from Corporation Chairman!
Alike Ford:
- " You can have model T automobiles into the colour you want, and they will be black "
Democracy..people can paint their automobiles the colour they want...also people can put the condensers as big as they want... board must have room, but no circle, not standard, not suggested and not referenced into schematic.
Graham need of big condensers was because he made class A amplifier, with huge current.... our sittuation is different, our is class AB...a very small iddle current..... 5000uf to each ampere, INTO the supply, to each rail, is all we need.
regards,
Carlos
Not only into size, but also into capacitance if needed.
470uf to the output is enougth
220uf to the left rail side is enougth too.
Insulations to 63 volts only.
Of course, dear nephew, if you like them, and prefer to use big condensers, let room and holes into the boards to the ones you want, but do not paint references into the board, those with circles as they are not standard into the schematic.
Do not mark cicles, or if you mark them, make it to schematic values, beeing the output transistors ones modified to 470uf, or 1000uf, rigth now, if needed to be that small, to reduce the size into the board.
The standard offered board must be pretty and using schematic values.... of course you can provide room to the ones you want as option, but not as standard...even 3D demonstration image must have smaller condensers.
Order from Corporation Chairman!
Alike Ford:
- " You can have model T automobiles into the colour you want, and they will be black "
Democracy..people can paint their automobiles the colour they want...also people can put the condensers as big as they want... board must have room, but no circle, not standard, not suggested and not referenced into schematic.
Graham need of big condensers was because he made class A amplifier, with huge current.... our sittuation is different, our is class AB...a very small iddle current..... 5000uf to each ampere, INTO the supply, to each rail, is all we need.
regards,
Carlos
Board dimensions
Nordic, thanks for the enticement of Precision board shots.
What is the planned width of the board? It seems that heat sinks will have to be at least 12.5 cm wide to accommodate the board width plus power transistors. Wanted to start looking for the right heat sinks.
Francois
Nordic said:
Nordic, thanks for the enticement of Precision board shots.
What is the planned width of the board? It seems that heat sinks will have to be at least 12.5 cm wide to accommodate the board width plus power transistors. Wanted to start looking for the right heat sinks.
Francois
Carlos,
greetings.
thank you for sharing your design to us.
I eagerly waiting for the dx precicion pcb and layout to try my hands on.
I'm not so sure if there's protection circuit build in on your precision amplifier,
so I'm wondering if one supply voltage (ie V+ or v-) get cut off
will the o/p stay at 0V like leach low tim amplifier?
or it just give max V dc on the o/p?
once again thanks.
greetings.
thank you for sharing your design to us.
I eagerly waiting for the dx precicion pcb and layout to try my hands on.
I'm not so sure if there's protection circuit build in on your precision amplifier,
so I'm wondering if one supply voltage (ie V+ or v-) get cut off
will the o/p stay at 0V like leach low tim amplifier?
or it just give max V dc on the o/p?
once again thanks.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.