I remember a couple of things very clearly from my first visit to real, live, un-amplified music ( a classical concert ):
1. the purity of the sound was shocking, I even enjoyed the part when they were still voicing their instruments.
2. when I started focusing on the sound, the high frequency tones seemed to be lacking compared to what I was used to hearing, which is the sound reproduced by speakers. They were there but did not draw any attention.
3. audio reproduction of large scale classical perfomance has a long, long way to go
That was a long time ago and years later I came across the Quad ESL and I recognized some of that purity and great tonal balance from a live performance. Nothing sticks out, no exaggerated bass or treble like so many dime-a-dozen speakers. It isn't perfect but what it does it does well.
I remember a couple of things very clearly from my first visit to real, live, un-amplified music ( a classical concert ):
3. audio reproduction of large scale classical perfomance has a long, long way to go
.
Yes , a very longway and the esl 63 like everything else don't come close ...
Ohhh in case it is forgotten , Hi-Fi is the reproduction of live music .
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AJ,
I'm still waiting for you to quantify your statement , what is correct 1db ,2 db ,-3 db for eg .
The quad you keep referring to is a limited bandwidth speaker , any rise in the highs will kill it's delicate balance, so i can understand your comment . Now place it with a bass/sub and see the balance .. Yep now the limited bandwidth on the top becomes a problem .
My explanation is based on years of testing and experience , Capaciti in his explanation about polar response eluded to such , as I have and more so system balance .
There is no need to "convince" me , as I'm here to enjoy the comrade and to learn and exchange Idea's and cannot understand why both you and Calvin would make this so
"personal " in discussion.
I was ( used to be ) involved in the Hi-fi business for many years ( 30 ) and heard my first quad in 1975 and many , many times over the years , i wasthere when it was popular to double stack with a Decca and even now when they are triple stacking them ( PK) so I'm very familiar with the sound you are describing. My first attempt at speakers was open baffle ( 1977) and i have been designing open baffle speakers ever since ( tickles me that this is now the in craze ) Open baffle in the middle , bi-polar in the top and bass reflex in the lower .
In 77 This sort of speaker design was my first attempt at duplicating the quad middle with better dynamics and bandwidth . Later ( 1980 ) We made a business of it and sold such variants from then until we ended production in 1995. At which time the only other producing similar was ALON .
During such time products produced by us were sold in hi end Hi-Fi Shops across the US and over the years had recieved many accolades for it's open sound and unusual design and on occasion was voted in the top 10 or so for best sound at hi-fi shows ( so i know a little about this business) .
Open baffle was our forte but not all that we did , even after designing the very difficult Iso-diametric point source speaker system, ( later copied by a company in France after we left the business ) we did a lot of in depth research on high frequency output and it's associated phase issues in response to dipole/bipolar outputs. ( it's all in the phase )
On enclosed speakers models used rear firing tweeters to enhanced ambiance ,(86) paying close attention to magnitude and phase with the reflective energy ( angle very important here ) this setup is more common place today , but not so back then ...
Part of our development was constant listening and attendance of live music, after spending many afternoons listening to unamplified performances of Jazz quintets/symphony orchestra's , we could not believe at how powerful things like cymbals were and to truly reproduce such power would require a tweeter of such magnitude it was mind boggling ..( not to mention how some audiophiles would consider this "hot" ).
Practice sessions tended to be the best venue as we could take DB readings and close mike recordings for our own personal testing . ( something i had learn't the necessity of from Peter McGrath back in 1980). Listening to a full scale symphony in a hall half the usual size is mind bending for power and as you have discovered instruments were softer and more powerful than what the best Hi-fi could represent .
Now IMHO,
Speaker designing was and still is part science /part black magic , as it is the reverse microphone of the hi-fi chain , . Affected by room acoustics, electrical and acoustic phase and everything else in between there is no absolute and after all these years there are still no winners, it is and will always be , your Hi-Fi and then my Hi -Fi, with very little agreeing on anything , even after applying all of the damn science we still have to listen to it for " OPINIONS" .
There is a lot of science with us today , computers have made it so much easier , but ahhh..... the wisdom .... if only in a software for the young un's...
.
I'm still waiting for you to quantify your statement , what is correct 1db ,2 db ,-3 db for eg .
The quad you keep referring to is a limited bandwidth speaker , any rise in the highs will kill it's delicate balance, so i can understand your comment . Now place it with a bass/sub and see the balance .. Yep now the limited bandwidth on the top becomes a problem .
My explanation is based on years of testing and experience , Capaciti in his explanation about polar response eluded to such , as I have and more so system balance .
There is no need to "convince" me , as I'm here to enjoy the comrade and to learn and exchange Idea's and cannot understand why both you and Calvin would make this so
"personal " in discussion.
I was ( used to be ) involved in the Hi-fi business for many years ( 30 ) and heard my first quad in 1975 and many , many times over the years , i wasthere when it was popular to double stack with a Decca and even now when they are triple stacking them ( PK) so I'm very familiar with the sound you are describing. My first attempt at speakers was open baffle ( 1977) and i have been designing open baffle speakers ever since ( tickles me that this is now the in craze ) Open baffle in the middle , bi-polar in the top and bass reflex in the lower .
In 77 This sort of speaker design was my first attempt at duplicating the quad middle with better dynamics and bandwidth . Later ( 1980 ) We made a business of it and sold such variants from then until we ended production in 1995. At which time the only other producing similar was ALON .
During such time products produced by us were sold in hi end Hi-Fi Shops across the US and over the years had recieved many accolades for it's open sound and unusual design and on occasion was voted in the top 10 or so for best sound at hi-fi shows ( so i know a little about this business) .
Open baffle was our forte but not all that we did , even after designing the very difficult Iso-diametric point source speaker system, ( later copied by a company in France after we left the business ) we did a lot of in depth research on high frequency output and it's associated phase issues in response to dipole/bipolar outputs. ( it's all in the phase )
On enclosed speakers models used rear firing tweeters to enhanced ambiance ,(86) paying close attention to magnitude and phase with the reflective energy ( angle very important here ) this setup is more common place today , but not so back then ...
Part of our development was constant listening and attendance of live music, after spending many afternoons listening to unamplified performances of Jazz quintets/symphony orchestra's , we could not believe at how powerful things like cymbals were and to truly reproduce such power would require a tweeter of such magnitude it was mind boggling ..( not to mention how some audiophiles would consider this "hot" ).
Practice sessions tended to be the best venue as we could take DB readings and close mike recordings for our own personal testing . ( something i had learn't the necessity of from Peter McGrath back in 1980). Listening to a full scale symphony in a hall half the usual size is mind bending for power and as you have discovered instruments were softer and more powerful than what the best Hi-fi could represent .
Now IMHO,
Speaker designing was and still is part science /part black magic , as it is the reverse microphone of the hi-fi chain , . Affected by room acoustics, electrical and acoustic phase and everything else in between there is no absolute and after all these years there are still no winners, it is and will always be , your Hi-Fi and then my Hi -Fi, with very little agreeing on anything , even after applying all of the damn science we still have to listen to it for " OPINIONS" .
There is a lot of science with us today , computers have made it so much easier , but ahhh..... the wisdom .... if only in a software for the young un's...
.
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Hi Wayne,
to underline your comments i want to make the statement, that after listening an orchestra in a music hall, i need to restrict myself not listening music with my speakers for the next day.
Otherwise my acoustical memory would cause a frustrating experience by detecting not a single quality comparable to what i heard the day before.
Capaciti
to underline your comments i want to make the statement, that after listening an orchestra in a music hall, i need to restrict myself not listening music with my speakers for the next day.
Otherwise my acoustical memory would cause a frustrating experience by detecting not a single quality comparable to what i heard the day before.
Capaciti
I'm want to get back on topic.
If we want to do anything better than just 'voicing opinions' we will have to start backing up our statements with solid facts. This means models, simulations, references to literature etc. Listening tests are OK but only when proper controls are in place. Anything that makes good science.
If we want to do anything better than just 'voicing opinions' we will have to start backing up our statements with solid facts. This means models, simulations, references to literature etc. Listening tests are OK but only when proper controls are in place. Anything that makes good science.
I'd like to get started with the stator spacing problem. I'll try to work out a model. Does anyone have a digital copy of the "AudioXpress June 2005, Matthew Lattis" article?
We will also have to make test stators so we can do measurements. I'm thinking small printed circuit board stators. Who can recommend proper software to create the hole patterns and that can output a format that is accepted by circuit board manufacturers? I've been toying with regular pcb software (diptrace, eagle) and I don't think it's particularly suited for this.
We will also have to make test stators so we can do measurements. I'm thinking small printed circuit board stators. Who can recommend proper software to create the hole patterns and that can output a format that is accepted by circuit board manufacturers? I've been toying with regular pcb software (diptrace, eagle) and I don't think it's particularly suited for this.
Arend-Jan,
most of CAD software allows you to do arrays (polar included) of holes/components as well as different kinds of fills like pour with the predefined gap/clearance from the holes.
Most CADs output in multiple format and most PCB houses understand multiple formats. Some of them go as far as offering free software...
Alex
P.S. If your pattern is somewhat regular like R3/4 perforation in "standard" punched steel, I could provide the drawing... in gerber format, which is usually used by PCB manuf.
Hi Arend-Jan,
I'm here! My CNC machine is at your service. Just tell me what you want and I will try to make the parts for you. If it is possible, I would prefer that we do the different hole patterns but based on my original headphone stator shape design. That way we can also test listening to it as well.
Wachara C.
I'm here! My CNC machine is at your service. Just tell me what you want and I will try to make the parts for you. If it is possible, I would prefer that we do the different hole patterns but based on my original headphone stator shape design. That way we can also test listening to it as well.
Wachara C.
Sounds good to me ... Is it possible to do a wired stator for comparison ...
My apologies if i had misinterpreted your responses as such ..
Does the sator(s) have to made of metal? Or, is the metal just a insulated conductor for the panel. This probally does not make sence, I am still working with Charlie on the build. As far as insullation, I have read magnet tape and 3m 2 side tape for the stator/diagphram, which is best and non conductive? 3m of course, I would think. Charlie, if you read this post, what was the thickness of the metal and hole and spacing size? I believe you told me the spacing(1/16").
Everyone is right, I am going crazy trying to this right the first time, like I also mentioned, I will ask alot of questions. Just trying to look in the right direction.
I do need to find someone or something in the US that sells these coils, Charlie has some as back up. He went tandem and got a deal. Please post me or PM me if anyone knows some one here, I think that should be my first investment. Let me know what you think.
Everyone is right, I am going crazy trying to this right the first time, like I also mentioned, I will ask alot of questions. Just trying to look in the right direction.
I do need to find someone or something in the US that sells these coils, Charlie has some as back up. He went tandem and got a deal. Please post me or PM me if anyone knows some one here, I think that should be my first investment. Let me know what you think.
i used aluminium window screen super glued to a lighting grating with 1/2 inch squares(the kind you find at home depot) and then painted them with enamel this worked great but required alot of coats of paint(which is costly) and closed up some of the holes. so then i had the screening double powder coated which was even better except when i got it back they had rolled it up. causing some stress cracks and therefore arcing. after some new ones were made i was able to run them some where between 5kv to 7or8kv until my 6v6 opt's broke down. so then backed them off to 2to3kv and was quite impressed with them. as atest i was listening to some rain and thunder off of a cassette tape and my dog kept running to the window to watch the rain but there wasn't any.i wanted to use steel screen so i could solder the contacts but i couldn't find any and is expensive to special order. but you can get different hole sizes and wire diameters.i felt you could have a higher field concentration with the same amount open area using this type of material.those panels are 3.25x9.75 active area i have ones 4x their size and are the painted ones.next next ones will be 4x of that aprox. 10.5x42 for an increase of 12db(or was it 6db) over the orginal ones i wll take some pics if any one interested in seeing them. jer
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