I am also glad I took the leap into DIY speakers rather than buy another speaker. But I have heard really good commercial speakers, at least those being sold as studio monitors. Maybe when they make monitor speakers for studios, they have to design them better, but when they design them for the audiophile crowd (living room speakers for rich bankers) they are designing for some aesthetic (not flat response, scooped mids, sparkle treble, powerful bass, loud....) and also for looks.
If you ever want to hear a good commercial speaker try to find a studio monitor made by ATC, PMC, barefoot, PSI, Focal, Neumann KH, or musikelectronic geithain.
And I do think there are a few good sounding audiophile speakers still out there like Vandersteen, Quad ESLs and Focal to name a few.
But as DIYers we can get bloody close to these good one and we can do MUCH better than the vast majority of speakers out there. And there is no "magic" that these good speakers are doing that we can't do.
Definitely stay the course and enjoy.
If you ever want to hear a good commercial speaker try to find a studio monitor made by ATC, PMC, barefoot, PSI, Focal, Neumann KH, or musikelectronic geithain.
And I do think there are a few good sounding audiophile speakers still out there like Vandersteen, Quad ESLs and Focal to name a few.
But as DIYers we can get bloody close to these good one and we can do MUCH better than the vast majority of speakers out there. And there is no "magic" that these good speakers are doing that we can't do.
Definitely stay the course and enjoy.
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Unluckilly not all Focal/JM Lab : most of it sound dry for my taste !
Some says The D serie from B&W is made with the tweeter in front of the other registers to be heard at the price of a desiquilibrium : You pay for diamonds so you must hear fot Diamond tweeter first !
I read again yesterday the test of the 803D kevlar mid by John Krutk : it is usable from 400 hz to 2 000 hZ without problems and around 3.8 k hZ with filter works !
The problem with the little standalone 4" to 5.5" tested here for diy is maybea lack of pushed air when used in FR below 800/1000 hZ !
All is about a casual listening in a flat... or a need of impact and dynamic gap with more higher efficienty, cone surface (at least below 2000 k Hz?) with more spl for average listening (75/85 d B average ? dynamic peaks at 110 to 115/120 dB spl ?)
Having : Proac D15 / Kef ref 104/2 & (enhanced) Boston Lynnfield 400L... my diy will be for the second philosophy but trying to keep the best of the first one : tonal color and soundstage !
In this goal my Full range zone is more 80/100 hZ to 800/1100 hZ : 12" seems a good trade off here ! Trying to keep acurate this aera as it is one of most of the Fundamentals (my understanding is it's hard to have an acurate standalone driver for a wider 50 hZ to 800/1000 if you want to have also acoustical bass instruments) !
But don't forget than these commercial products are made for passive filter... for most of people (cd player, one amp !)
Some says The D serie from B&W is made with the tweeter in front of the other registers to be heard at the price of a desiquilibrium : You pay for diamonds so you must hear fot Diamond tweeter first !
I read again yesterday the test of the 803D kevlar mid by John Krutk : it is usable from 400 hz to 2 000 hZ without problems and around 3.8 k hZ with filter works !
The problem with the little standalone 4" to 5.5" tested here for diy is maybea lack of pushed air when used in FR below 800/1000 hZ !
All is about a casual listening in a flat... or a need of impact and dynamic gap with more higher efficienty, cone surface (at least below 2000 k Hz?) with more spl for average listening (75/85 d B average ? dynamic peaks at 110 to 115/120 dB spl ?)
Having : Proac D15 / Kef ref 104/2 & (enhanced) Boston Lynnfield 400L... my diy will be for the second philosophy but trying to keep the best of the first one : tonal color and soundstage !
In this goal my Full range zone is more 80/100 hZ to 800/1100 hZ
: 12" seems a good trade off here ! Trying to keep acurate this aera as it is one of most of the Fundamentals (my understanding is it's hard to have an acurate standalone driver for a wider 50 hZ to 800/1000 if you want to have also acoustical bass instruments) !But don't forget than these commercial products are made for passive filter... for most of people (cd player, one amp !)
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LOL, I love Focal drivers, but you do have to be careful with them. Garbage in, garbage out. I always ran mine with tube amps. Plus the Ti tweeters have a ring at 16.5k that makes them unlistenable unless modded. They are tough to equal in the lower treble though -- kind of the opposite of ribbons.
I've never heard a commercial (fully assembled
) Focal/JM Lab speaker. RE studio monitors: Some of these are pretty good, and probably better in many if not most cases than audiophile speakers of similar price. I've been a little out of the loop lately, but Dynaudios, Genelecs, Tannoys seem to be popular for mixing in studios I have seen. Super duper high resolution isn't necessarily important when mixing.
The last pair of DIY speakers I made used late 70's EPI concave tweeters (second generation).
Quite similar to later Focal concave tweeters, but a lot more 'forgiving'.
The first generation EPI concave tweeters are smoother, but not as extended, as the second generation EPI concave tweeters.
Steve
Quite similar to later Focal concave tweeters, but a lot more 'forgiving'.
The first generation EPI concave tweeters are smoother, but not as extended, as the second generation EPI concave tweeters.
Steve
Steve- those inverted dome tweeters were certainly interesting when first introduced by Winslow and company in the early 70s. Huw at Human is still a keeper of the flame, offering repair / replacement spares for EPI, Epicure and Genesis Physics model as newer versions of some for DIY builders.
One of the delights of the the 2-way modules was the simplicity of the XO
During one of my past lifetimes, I was in the audio retail trade (mid 70s), and while there were other more prestigious brands on the floor, we sold literally tons of the entire EIP /Epicure line. I personally owned several models of the original "brown catalog" series - the 150 and 201 (Quartet) probably my favorite , and of course the microtowers were way too much fun for the money. Doobie Brothers, Listen to the Music sold at least 100prs of those little white mothers the first year.
HUMAN Speakers: Technology and Time
He also fabricates his own branded line of models - including the delightfully over the top and possibly ironically named parody.
HUMAN Speakers: The InHUMAN Speaker
What am I saying, there's probably no such thing as too ironic, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's not received expressions of interest - the price tag alone will weed out the nose-pickers
One of the delights of the the 2-way modules was the simplicity of the XO
During one of my past lifetimes, I was in the audio retail trade (mid 70s), and while there were other more prestigious brands on the floor, we sold literally tons of the entire EIP /Epicure line. I personally owned several models of the original "brown catalog" series - the 150 and 201 (Quartet) probably my favorite , and of course the microtowers were way too much fun for the money. Doobie Brothers, Listen to the Music sold at least 100prs of those little white mothers the first year.
HUMAN Speakers: Technology and Time
He also fabricates his own branded line of models - including the delightfully over the top and possibly ironically named parody.
HUMAN Speakers: The InHUMAN Speaker
What am I saying, there's probably no such thing as too ironic, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's not received expressions of interest - the price tag alone will weed out the nose-pickers
I've gone to more than a few audio shows at this point and I always walk out thinking what I have and built at home sounds better. And it costs a lot less.
I went into one room where he was playing Norah Jones on some enormous speakers that cost upwards of $150k, and I thought he could hire Norah to sing for him in person for that money. And it didn't sound all that great.
And really, what does the collective knowledge and wisdom of the forums not know compared to the designers of these things? I'm sure some of the contributors over the years know a lot more.
I went into one room where he was playing Norah Jones on some enormous speakers that cost upwards of $150k, and I thought he could hire Norah to sing for him in person for that money. And it didn't sound all that great.
And really, what does the collective knowledge and wisdom of the forums not know compared to the designers of these things? I'm sure some of the contributors over the years know a lot more.
I just went to a high end audio store and listened to some B&W 802 Diamonds powered by TOTL McIntosh class AB amps and McIntosh tube pre-amps. It did not sound unbalanced like too much treble, the mids were nice, but bass was only so so. A pair of 7in woofer in a BR box. First of all, I am spoiled by nice bass from a FLH or sealed bass with LT. The sound did not have the transient perfect presence I am used to in my builds. The demo song was a remastered version of Brubeck's Take Five which I am very familiar with. The positive was that it could be played loud without strain. But at 89dB listening level, I think my DIY efforts sound better. Much better. I also listened to Ann Bisson's September in Montreal which is a nice song to audition speakers with.
I also listened to a pair of $13.5k Sonus Faber Olympica 3's powered by huge McIntosh mono bloc 650C's and tube preamp and nice DAC. Maybe $40k total system price. It to was nice, perhaps better in transparency than B&W 802D. I like the silk some tweeters on SF more than diamond tweeters.
Again, it did not blow me away and again, I think my 10F/RS225 at moderate volumes sounds about the same but mine have better percussion dynamics due to quasi transient perfect XO.
What I am seeing is that the transient perfect XO makes a big difference and thus expensive big mono bloc amps and boutique DAC's are not needed. Work I the flat response, work on te transient perfect XO, work on low distortion that allows higher SPL for great head room and you have your self a great sounding speaker.
To be clear, these commercial offerings are very well built and look like fine furniture. They have nice binding posts and sturdy looking plinth legs and spikey feet with glossy hand rubbed finishes. But they don't sound like the extra $15k to $39k in system cost.
I also listened to a pair of $13.5k Sonus Faber Olympica 3's powered by huge McIntosh mono bloc 650C's and tube preamp and nice DAC. Maybe $40k total system price. It to was nice, perhaps better in transparency than B&W 802D. I like the silk some tweeters on SF more than diamond tweeters.
Again, it did not blow me away and again, I think my 10F/RS225 at moderate volumes sounds about the same but mine have better percussion dynamics due to quasi transient perfect XO.
What I am seeing is that the transient perfect XO makes a big difference and thus expensive big mono bloc amps and boutique DAC's are not needed. Work I the flat response, work on te transient perfect XO, work on low distortion that allows higher SPL for great head room and you have your self a great sounding speaker.
To be clear, these commercial offerings are very well built and look like fine furniture. They have nice binding posts and sturdy looking plinth legs and spikey feet with glossy hand rubbed finishes. But they don't sound like the extra $15k to $39k in system cost.
I have just opposite experience with 802D. I do own a pair. Bass is just right in my room. To get good bass from them one needs high current amplifier like ones from Bryston or Krell, no tubes or low power units should apply. And I sometimes feel that there is not enough midrange for certain music from these speakers. Of cause you should place them in well treated room and carefully adjust position. Why do you think they are often used as mid-field monitor in mastering studios? DIY speakers can reach that level of sound quality or exceed it, but I suspect they will not be much cheaper if you account for amount of labor required. Keep in mind that you can get B&W used (3-5 y.o.) for half of the original price (that is what I did), and still be happy.
That's much of what you are paying for, which is fine I suppose. Knowing the high end furniture industry well, I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that most of that final retail price is going into the the cut of the various intermediaries, not the actual production cost.
For those of us who don't have wood working experience and do not have proper equipment to build speaker cabinets, is it a viable option to take the cabinet plans to a local cabinet maker and have the speaker boxes made to spec? I have numerous local, small, one man shop cabinet craftsman in my area. Anyone done this?
I've done that for just about every speaker I've ever built, since my woodworking skills are close to nonexistent. The results have been excellent as long as I was very explicit about what I wanted (detailed drawings and dimensions).
Usually no. Kitchen cabinets are usually assembled from ready to use parts with very limited fabrication. Custom furniture makers are the only real choice - they design and make things from scratch. Though that path is not cheap.
You know just for grins one day I was on a site that sold the replacement drivers for B&W speakers, and the prices on the drivers were fairly cheap? When compared to the price of a finished B&W speaker, it occured to me that if the drivers were'nt that expensive, what are folks paying for? A furniture grade cabinet and a crossover? DIY has been a real adventure in building something with my own two hands, that would rival some in the highend store. It has been personally rewarding to have something that made music sound like you were right there if you closed your eyes! Folks it does'nt get much better than that!! In a way i feel sorry for all those folks spending their hard earned money on something that we can do for a fraction of the price, and frankly sounds much better.
Mac
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