Apparently a pair of 1950's 15" drivers in an open baffle setup will beat any servo, labhorn, vented, passive radiator, sealed setup.
Right up to 105Db @ 15Hz. Especially when driven with a low power tube amp. And I won't need to eq out the room modes with my ultracurve (sad zombie that I am
)
Home theater nirvana is here - No more suggestions please people.
-sigh-
Rob
Right up to 105Db @ 15Hz. Especially when driven with a low power tube amp. And I won't need to eq out the room modes with my ultracurve (sad zombie that I am
)Home theater nirvana is here
- No more suggestions please people. -sigh-
Rob
Hi Rodd - from measuring my present bass units, I have a lot of boost at 30 Hz in my room. Naturally this will be completely different when I place my undecided subs against the back wall, firing into the corner. I'll use my pc/mic setup for frequency measurements rather than the ultracurve btw.
Sy - that's easy - my listening/viewing position is a two seater couch 12' from the screen - thats where the mic will be. Any other position doesn't matter.
Cheers,
Rob
Sy - that's easy - my listening/viewing position is a two seater couch 12' from the screen - thats where the mic will be. Any other position doesn't matter.
Cheers,
Rob
A 12" in every box, and an LM3175 feeding every 12".
A parody of Microsoft's catchphrase...
Anyway, an idea that I like is to have a very modular system where you just use a plethora of medium priced drivers instead of one or two uber-priced ones. You don't have any impedance problems because of the 1 amp per driver setup. You can keep adding to your system as funds allow until...
1/ You get hauled over the coals for disturbing the flight path of low flying jets.
2/ Your room volume decreases alarmingly.
3/ You just can't keep your food down.
Just think - if after a while the system doesn't seem as exciting as it used to when you first got it, just go out and get a couple more drivers, amps and boxes. You don't have to throw away all you have aready built up. You could stack the boxes in different ways according to the decor. Horizontal, vertical or "wall of sound". Hell, you could use them as inward-facing "bricks" to build your house.
A parody of Microsoft's catchphrase...
Anyway, an idea that I like is to have a very modular system where you just use a plethora of medium priced drivers instead of one or two uber-priced ones. You don't have any impedance problems because of the 1 amp per driver setup. You can keep adding to your system as funds allow until...
1/ You get hauled over the coals for disturbing the flight path of low flying jets.
2/ Your room volume decreases alarmingly.
3/ You just can't keep your food down.
Just think - if after a while the system doesn't seem as exciting as it used to when you first got it, just go out and get a couple more drivers, amps and boxes. You don't have to throw away all you have aready built up. You could stack the boxes in different ways according to the decor. Horizontal, vertical or "wall of sound". Hell, you could use them as inward-facing "bricks" to build your house.
Hi Circlotron,
I've spent a couple of hours searching for suitable drivers for a cheap multiple sealed type affair, and can't really find much with the x-max needed for very low bass. At the moment it would have to be 4 Tempests. I wish the price of the Tumult was as low as it is in the States.
I've looked at pro 18's, but they had about 6mm excursion. Not much vd .
I do live on a flight path, and would love to get my own back on the aircrafts noise.....
Jan, As above I'm not finding much choice in the UK for suitable x-max. Any suggestions? (maybe more choice in Europe )
Cheers
Rob
I've spent a couple of hours searching for suitable drivers for a cheap multiple sealed type affair, and can't really find much with the x-max needed for very low bass. At the moment it would have to be 4 Tempests. I wish the price of the Tumult was as low as it is in the States.
I've looked at pro 18's, but they had about 6mm excursion. Not much vd .
I do live on a flight path, and would love to get my own back on the aircrafts noise.....
Jan, As above I'm not finding much choice in the UK for suitable x-max. Any suggestions? (maybe more choice in Europe )
Cheers
Rob
Probably the best you could do is cancel the racket with some anti-noise. Seems it has been done in truck cabins.RobWells said:I do live on a flight path, and would love to get my own back on the aircrafts noise.....
Actually,
that would make quite a nice project, especially if you lived by a busy road. You could actually lower the noise floor of your listening room. What's more, the SAF (spouse acceptance factor) would probably be great seeing it would produce a room with such excellent aesthetic qualities too. "Look how clever my husband is" she would be saying to her friends. And WHAT a good excuse to build that new 15Hz sub...
""Probably the best you could do is cancel the racket with some anti-noise. Seems it has been done in truck cabins.""
No it's not that bad. I live in the sticks - nearest neighbour 1/2 mile away. Some days you don't notice any planes, other days you'd hear a few if the stereo is being played at low levels (like that ever happens )
I notice planes through the summer when I'm having a bbq and sitting in the garden. In the UK that's only for about 4 weeks every year though. :-(
Cheers
Rob
No it's not that bad. I live in the sticks - nearest neighbour 1/2 mile away. Some days you don't notice any planes, other days you'd hear a few if the stereo is being played at low levels (like that ever happens
)I notice planes through the summer when I'm having a bbq and sitting in the garden. In the UK that's only for about 4 weeks every year though. :-(
Cheers
Rob
Hi Rob
I wouldn't worry too much about x max if you use bigger pro drivers, as long as you are comfortable with their usually slightly higher Fs. I was fixing a Meyer powered PA sub, with two 15 inch drivers, a while back, and even running at full to bed in the drivers after a recone, excursion was only about 6 mm with a 25Hz test tone. That was so loud you had to wear hearing protection to be in the same room!
I wouldn't worry too much about x max if you use bigger pro drivers, as long as you are comfortable with their usually slightly higher Fs. I was fixing a Meyer powered PA sub, with two 15 inch drivers, a while back, and even running at full to bed in the drivers after a recone, excursion was only about 6 mm with a 25Hz test tone. That was so loud you had to wear hearing protection to be in the same room!
Rob,
If you are looking for drivers, the best source I know is the LDSG:
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-2.php3
it has driver recommendations and links to suppliers as well
if you are interested in servo subs, there is one very well documented DIY sub that measures better than velodyne servo subs (lower THD) on a reasonable budget:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~joeras/sub_index.htm
It is based on the well regarded Peerless XLS (which I think is available in the UK) and is similar to a sub designed by Linkwitz on his site.
It comes down to tradeoffs - if you want to compete with servo subs in a small box you give up SPL, but with the cost of this sub you could consider doing two which is meant to help with room modes.
If I were you I would disregard bandpass subs - they are probably the least musical of all subs, and involve the most compromise in sound quality.
If you are looking for drivers, the best source I know is the LDSG:
http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-2.php3
it has driver recommendations and links to suppliers as well
if you are interested in servo subs, there is one very well documented DIY sub that measures better than velodyne servo subs (lower THD) on a reasonable budget:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~joeras/sub_index.htm
It is based on the well regarded Peerless XLS (which I think is available in the UK) and is similar to a sub designed by Linkwitz on his site.
It comes down to tradeoffs - if you want to compete with servo subs in a small box you give up SPL, but with the cost of this sub you could consider doing two which is meant to help with room modes.
If I were you I would disregard bandpass subs - they are probably the least musical of all subs, and involve the most compromise in sound quality.
if you want bang for buck ...
if you want max bang for buck, have a look at www.stryke.com if you haven't already ... if you buy stryke drivers when they have a pre-order going, they offer the best $/vd ratio you will find ...
BUT, BUT, BUT ...
also consider:
*if the distortion is high, you may not consider all of that xmax useable
*driver parameters - if you decide you want a passive radiator, the extra cost will mess up your bang for buck idea
*amp power required ... in other words, work out the total system cost before you conclude that you have found the best bang for buck
The tempest has higher sensitivity than the Shiva and more output, but it requires a much bigger box - I was considering the Tempest at one stage, but wasn't happy with the big box. Later I bought two of the AV12 during the pre-order for about AUD$130 less than two Tempests, but the AV12 needs more power - the cost of the AV12 although it seemed cheaper on paper will probably end up costing more.
I was tempted to get two AV15's as there was more bang for buck, but it was the same issue - it meant a much bigger box. In going from a 12 inch to a 15 inch driver, there is a big step up in box size. I decided that, although more expensive, I would be happier with 2 x 12inch drivers - better interaction with room acoustic, better integration with main speakers and they are smaller and less bulky.
if you want max bang for buck, have a look at www.stryke.com if you haven't already ... if you buy stryke drivers when they have a pre-order going, they offer the best $/vd ratio you will find ...
BUT, BUT, BUT ...
also consider:
*if the distortion is high, you may not consider all of that xmax useable
*driver parameters - if you decide you want a passive radiator, the extra cost will mess up your bang for buck idea
*amp power required ... in other words, work out the total system cost before you conclude that you have found the best bang for buck
The tempest has higher sensitivity than the Shiva and more output, but it requires a much bigger box - I was considering the Tempest at one stage, but wasn't happy with the big box. Later I bought two of the AV12 during the pre-order for about AUD$130 less than two Tempests, but the AV12 needs more power - the cost of the AV12 although it seemed cheaper on paper will probably end up costing more.
I was tempted to get two AV15's as there was more bang for buck, but it was the same issue - it meant a much bigger box. In going from a 12 inch to a 15 inch driver, there is a big step up in box size. I decided that, although more expensive, I would be happier with 2 x 12inch drivers - better interaction with room acoustic, better integration with main speakers and they are smaller and less bulky.
Well I can understand that people like the sound of old equipment (having repaired quite a lot of it by myself). It has some pleasing aestetics to it.
But the way I understand the meaning of the word SUBwoofer, such a device is intended to reproduce SUB-bass and not "upper bass"!
We should get away from pure aestetics (without banning it of course) to accurate reproduction, which in theory means that a system should be able to reproduce ANY input signal accurately. Not a guarantee for this purpose, but a step in the right direction, is a wide-bandwith system !!!
Rob
Regarding xmax, the Beyma driver 24L50 I alreayd mentioned has quite a lot of xmax and also the RCF L18P300 is able to push quite a lot of air.
Regards
Charles
http://www.phoenixgold.com/webfaq/cyclone.htm <<< How about Phoenix Gold Cyclone
Fr = 11hz
This baby can call a bunch of elephants somewhere in Serengeti
Fr = 11hz
This baby can call a bunch of elephants somewhere in Serengeti
Hi everyone,
Quite a few new posts here
Paulspencer :
I've got the ldsg page in my favorites. It's more a case of whats available in the UK, rather than whats available period. (import tax etc makes importing stuff rather pricey.)
""if you want to compete with servo subs in a small box you give up SPL""
I've got the space for some fairly large subs behind my screen. No need for 2' square boxes here. Approx 18cubic feet per enclosure, up to 4 enclosures. (ie got the space for 4 labhorns here )
Mind you with the Linkwitz Transform this isn't so important.
Also you mentioned integration with the main speakers - this isn't an issue as my mains are full range. This sub thing is purely for the .1 of movies..
"If I were you I would disregard bandpass subs - they are probably the least musical of all subs, and involve the most compromise in sound quality.""
I thought maybe the bandpass just to cover up to 25Hz, where the labhorns could take over. Don't know much about them TBH. - I guess that was a stab in the dark.
Thanks for the input.
Charles,
""Regarding xmax, the Beyma driver 24L50 I alreayd mentioned has quite a lot of xmax and also the RCF L18P300 is able to push quite a lot of air.""
I've worked out that the linear vd of the Beyma you mentioned is 1234cc's, against the tempests 1246cc ( one way linear excursion x sd ) So I've e-mailed the UK distributor for a price to compare. Thanks for the nod..
The RCF driver I could not find on the RCF homepage.
VEC7OR,
I've looked at the cyclone link, but they don't give standard parameters.
I found this though : ""The crossover point should be no higher than 60Hz. You may even go as low as 50Hz.""
For the .1 of dolby digital/dts you need to go up to about 120Hz I believe..
Al,
You don't happen to know the price of the Precision devices driver off hand do you? (and if it's available in the UK) 'Only'400cc's more vd than the tempest though.
Cheers all,
Rob
Quite a few new posts here
Paulspencer :
I've got the ldsg page in my favorites. It's more a case of whats available in the UK, rather than whats available period. (import tax etc makes importing stuff rather pricey.)
""if you want to compete with servo subs in a small box you give up SPL""
I've got the space for some fairly large subs behind my screen. No need for 2' square boxes here. Approx 18cubic feet per enclosure, up to 4 enclosures. (ie got the space for 4 labhorns here
)Mind you with the Linkwitz Transform this isn't so important.
Also you mentioned integration with the main speakers - this isn't an issue as my mains are full range. This sub thing is purely for the .1 of movies..
"If I were you I would disregard bandpass subs - they are probably the least musical of all subs, and involve the most compromise in sound quality.""
I thought maybe the bandpass just to cover up to 25Hz, where the labhorns could take over. Don't know much about them TBH. - I guess that was a stab in the dark.
Thanks for the input.
Charles,
""Regarding xmax, the Beyma driver 24L50 I alreayd mentioned has quite a lot of xmax and also the RCF L18P300 is able to push quite a lot of air.""
I've worked out that the linear vd of the Beyma you mentioned is 1234cc's, against the tempests 1246cc ( one way linear excursion x sd ) So I've e-mailed the UK distributor for a price to compare. Thanks for the nod..
The RCF driver I could not find on the RCF homepage.
VEC7OR,
I've looked at the cyclone link, but they don't give standard parameters.
I found this though : ""The crossover point should be no higher than 60Hz. You may even go as low as 50Hz.""
For the .1 of dolby digital/dts you need to go up to about 120Hz I believe..
Al,
You don't happen to know the price of the Precision devices driver off hand do you? (and if it's available in the UK) 'Only'400cc's more vd than the tempest though.
Cheers all,
Rob
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