If it was my system I would also go for heaps of Vd with closed boxes.
But I wouldn't go for ATC because they are quite pricey, specially here in Switzerland (I know, because I own two ATC 9" drivers I'm going to use for a bass-box).
A lot of Vd for less money can be had from specialist subwoofer drivers.
Regards
Charles
But I wouldn't go for ATC because they are quite pricey, specially here in Switzerland (I know, because I own two ATC 9" drivers I'm going to use for a bass-box).
A lot of Vd for less money can be had from specialist subwoofer drivers.
Regards
Charles
If you want to shift some serious air have a look at this baby 8-()
http://www.papl.co.uk/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=17
I read about a guy big into his church organ music who used two of these in a vented box and he claimed it could hit 5 hz
Stew.
http://www.papl.co.uk/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=17
I read about a guy big into his church organ music who used two of these in a vented box and he claimed it could hit 5 hz
Stew.
Edge of topic
Hi Folks...
I know it's on the edge of the topic (and the kitten would probably want to neuter me
)...
... but is it an option to get hold of those extreme Cervin Wega woofers intended for car audio, or the Phonix Gold stuff (I don't know if any of it is still in production)
On the far side, an array of TNT sticks with the fuse connected to the output of a power amp might givve you enugh "punch". I number of religious extremists might be more than willing to lend a hand?
Anyway... I just thought that some of the car audio stuff seems very extreme, and that it might be an alternative (obviously ignoring the cheapest stuff around).
Jennice
Hi Folks...
I know it's on the edge of the topic (and the kitten would probably want to neuter me
)... ... but is it an option to get hold of those extreme Cervin Wega woofers intended for car audio, or the Phonix Gold stuff (I don't know if any of it is still in production)
On the far side, an array of TNT sticks with the fuse connected to the output of a power amp might givve you enugh "punch". I number of religious extremists might be more than willing to lend a hand?
Anyway... I just thought that some of the car audio stuff seems very extreme, and that it might be an alternative (obviously ignoring the cheapest stuff around).
Jennice
Hi Stew,Stew320 said:If you want to shift some serious air have a look at this baby 8-()
http://www.papl.co.uk/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=17
I read about a guy big into his church organ music who used two of these in a vented box and he claimed it could hit 5 hz
Stew.
Although they can move a lot of air, the 30.5Hz fs in a ported alignment makes it doubtful that this driver was putting much volume out at 5Hz. It is hard to get this driver to work below 20Hz even with dual PR's.
Servo subwoofers...hmm. The subject comes up at intervals. A few notes:
--Use a sealed box. Trying to monitor the driver and the port is an exercise in frustration. You see people talk about putting mics between the two, but if you think it through, there are more problems than there are spots on a leopard.
--Don't bother spending money on the ultra-expensive drivers (say, $200-1000 ea.). Drop back a notch or two. You're going to need a lot of linear excursion if you intend to get into the teens. Be aware that most of the popular long-throw drivers (Shiva, et. al.) don't have anything faintly like flat response. (Try 10 or 15 dB down at 20 Hz relative to 100 Hz.) Note that the nifty response curves they publish are "simulated box response" by entering the driver parameters. Ain't got nuthin' to do with the reality. As long as you know this going in, you're okay; you can plan for it. But these people who start up subs based on these drivers and rave about how deep and wonderful the bass is don't know what real, flat bass is.
--Car drivers are even worse. I wouldn't bother unless the drivers were free.
--It's going to take a lot of amplifier power to push the cone beyond where it would normally go. Plan ahead for this one, too. Power requirements increase by, what, a power of four for every octave drop? It gets scary, especially if you're trying to shove a recalcitrant driver that wants to go back to sleep.
--The classic transducer (as someone said above) is a piezo. What you do is remove the dust cap, epoxy the piezo element underneath on a support that leaves it free to move, and reattach the dust cap. Piezos are cheap and readily available, but tend to have a ferocious phase shift down low, so watch out. Nowadays they make chip accelerometers. They're a little heavier (5g?) but I haven't heard that they suffer from the phase shift problems. They are expensive, though. I think I remember $20 ea. the last time I checked. There are other ways to get a signal, but that's the most common.
That said, servo subs can give some of the most amazing bass on the planet. Distortions of .5% or less are easily attainable as long as you're not exceeding the excursion limits of the driver. The old Infinity IRS and the Genesis 1 are good examples of the genre. Entec, too. Lotsa potential there.
I've got plans for going servo on my 12x12" array later on, but right now I'm working further up the chain and have settled for some frequency tailoring to flatten the response until I'm ready to tackle the problem--I've got something a little different up my sleeve, just not enough hours in the day.
Grey
--Use a sealed box. Trying to monitor the driver and the port is an exercise in frustration. You see people talk about putting mics between the two, but if you think it through, there are more problems than there are spots on a leopard.
--Don't bother spending money on the ultra-expensive drivers (say, $200-1000 ea.). Drop back a notch or two. You're going to need a lot of linear excursion if you intend to get into the teens. Be aware that most of the popular long-throw drivers (Shiva, et. al.) don't have anything faintly like flat response. (Try 10 or 15 dB down at 20 Hz relative to 100 Hz.) Note that the nifty response curves they publish are "simulated box response" by entering the driver parameters. Ain't got nuthin' to do with the reality. As long as you know this going in, you're okay; you can plan for it. But these people who start up subs based on these drivers and rave about how deep and wonderful the bass is don't know what real, flat bass is.
--Car drivers are even worse. I wouldn't bother unless the drivers were free.
--It's going to take a lot of amplifier power to push the cone beyond where it would normally go. Plan ahead for this one, too. Power requirements increase by, what, a power of four for every octave drop? It gets scary, especially if you're trying to shove a recalcitrant driver that wants to go back to sleep.
--The classic transducer (as someone said above) is a piezo. What you do is remove the dust cap, epoxy the piezo element underneath on a support that leaves it free to move, and reattach the dust cap. Piezos are cheap and readily available, but tend to have a ferocious phase shift down low, so watch out. Nowadays they make chip accelerometers. They're a little heavier (5g?) but I haven't heard that they suffer from the phase shift problems. They are expensive, though. I think I remember $20 ea. the last time I checked. There are other ways to get a signal, but that's the most common.
That said, servo subs can give some of the most amazing bass on the planet. Distortions of .5% or less are easily attainable as long as you're not exceeding the excursion limits of the driver. The old Infinity IRS and the Genesis 1 are good examples of the genre. Entec, too. Lotsa potential there.
I've got plans for going servo on my 12x12" array later on, but right now I'm working further up the chain and have settled for some frequency tailoring to flatten the response until I'm ready to tackle the problem--I've got something a little different up my sleeve, just not enough hours in the day.
Grey
This Romy character reminds me a bit of what's-his-face...the guy who'd post the long, rambling concatenations of words that made neither sense nor good reading.
SETs? Patricia Barber? Virginity? I don't recall posting anything of the sort and I can't see how it's relevant to whatever point he's trying to make.
...Not to mention the suspension of the laws of physics in his part of the world...
There was a guy who wrote me pertaining to something I had in one of my stories. Went off on some tangent about taking hold of a broom, turning off the lights, and being able to walk an infinite distance in any direction without being restrained by the walls of the room. I read that letter five or six times and was never able to make heads nor tails of it. There are people whose grasp on reality is tenuous, at best.
Grey
SETs? Patricia Barber? Virginity? I don't recall posting anything of the sort and I can't see how it's relevant to whatever point he's trying to make.
...Not to mention the suspension of the laws of physics in his part of the world...
There was a guy who wrote me pertaining to something I had in one of my stories. Went off on some tangent about taking hold of a broom, turning off the lights, and being able to walk an infinite distance in any direction without being restrained by the walls of the room. I read that letter five or six times and was never able to make heads nor tails of it. There are people whose grasp on reality is tenuous, at best.
Grey
I read the article in hi-fi choice, the guy had already cloned a set of Wilson maxx speakers and he used the precision devices 24" drivers for his sub and that’s what he claimed, He also said Richard lord from REL had been to hear the sub and it made him feel queasy.
I've not personally looked at the specs, the last time I looked at the site they weren’t listed. I sent them an e-mail but got no reply back.
I've not personally looked at the specs, the last time I looked at the site they weren’t listed. I sent them an e-mail but got no reply back.
Hi Stew,
Don't get me wrong, the Precision Devices woofer looks like an awesome driver. You could probably set it up for flat response into the 20's with out too much trouble; and you're going to have house shaking bass capability.
If you want flat response to 15Hz, that's a different story. The driver has to be designed to go that low with flat response. If not, you'll need to use some sort of equilization. The numbers Charles gave showed the 12db/octave roll off of a closed box alignment. I best (lowest) f3 you can achive for this driver in a closed box is ~80Hz with a Qt of 0.6. That means you would have to attenuate the bandpass level by 24db to get flat response to 15Hz.
Gray,
Good to see you back. I think Nania is the name you're looking for.
Don't get me wrong, the Precision Devices woofer looks like an awesome driver. You could probably set it up for flat response into the 20's with out too much trouble; and you're going to have house shaking bass capability.
If you want flat response to 15Hz, that's a different story. The driver has to be designed to go that low with flat response. If not, you'll need to use some sort of equilization. The numbers Charles gave showed the 12db/octave roll off of a closed box alignment. I best (lowest) f3 you can achive for this driver in a closed box is ~80Hz with a Qt of 0.6. That means you would have to attenuate the bandpass level by 24db to get flat response to 15Hz.
Gray,
Good to see you back. I think Nania is the name you're looking for.
Hi everyone.
It seems the sealed, big displacement Linkwitz transform solution is the most popular here.
Roddyama,
One question about your post above. Wouldn't it be best to measure the raw response in room, and apply the transform to that curve ? With room gain you'd probably only add 12Db eq rather than the 24. Otherwise I'd end up boosting the low end, only to eq it back back down to make it flat.
If it's useful info I also have a Behringer ultracurve pro available for the sub.
This has been an informative thread so far. Please people - keep the info coming
On the servo stuff, I remember the first time I read about servo subs. It was a 10" (i think) velodyne for car use. It was just the driver and a 'box of tricks' for the feedback stuff. I 'think' it was about £1100 for the driver. The ICE magazine that reviewed it wet themselves. Approx 4 - 6 years ago (?) Forgive my fuzzy memory.
Cheers
Rob
It seems the sealed, big displacement Linkwitz transform solution is the most popular here.
Roddyama,
One question about your post above. Wouldn't it be best to measure the raw response in room, and apply the transform to that curve ? With room gain you'd probably only add 12Db eq rather than the 24. Otherwise I'd end up boosting the low end, only to eq it back back down to make it flat.
If it's useful info I also have a Behringer ultracurve pro available for the sub.
This has been an informative thread so far. Please people - keep the info coming
On the servo stuff, I remember the first time I read about servo subs. It was a 10" (i think) velodyne for car use. It was just the driver and a 'box of tricks' for the feedback stuff. I 'think' it was about £1100 for the driver. The ICE magazine that reviewed it wet themselves. Approx 4 - 6 years ago (?) Forgive my fuzzy memory.
Cheers
Rob
Hi Jan,
The only caveat about this sub solution is the placement. Ideally the space I mentioned is available across the front wall of my room. I'd move my screen a couple feet forwards and hang dark curtains floor to ceiling, hiding the subs. If I used the whole wall for subs I'd have to budget in a couple hundred pounds to replace my screen with a perf one. Also with di-pole would'nt it need to be a good distance from the rear wall?
However - how fantastic would it be to show people into your room and have a 'wall' of woofers ?
I'd love to see some peoples jaws drop Also my budget would be down to £50 per woofer for 16 x 18" drivers.. I'm not sure theres much available for that money.
Hopefully your suggestion will inspire somebody here. I know if I had the space and the cash I'd try it like a shot..
Thanks for the suggestions !
Rob
The only caveat about this sub solution is the placement. Ideally the space I mentioned is available across the front wall of my room. I'd move my screen a couple feet forwards and hang dark curtains floor to ceiling, hiding the subs. If I used the whole wall for subs I'd have to budget in a couple hundred pounds to replace my screen with a perf one. Also with di-pole would'nt it need to be a good distance from the rear wall?
However - how fantastic would it be to show people into your room and have a 'wall' of woofers ?
I'd love to see some peoples jaws drop Also my budget would be down to £50 per woofer for 16 x 18" drivers.. I'm not sure theres much available for that money.Hopefully your suggestion will inspire somebody here. I know if I had the space and the cash I'd try it like a shot..
Thanks for the suggestions !
Rob
If you are in Europe then find yourself a pair of 15” Klangfilms from 50s with a resonant frequency 15Hz in open air and then show the big middle finger to anyone out there. In a properly done open baffle driven by a proper SET with a correct output transformer those drivers can produce a fantastic upper-bass tone..... although those the Behringer-ultracurve-type zombies would not appreciate and understand it anyway….slowmotion said:
The Cat
Hi Rob,RobWells said:
Absolutely... well maybe not absolutely, but yeah (you have to watch which words you use around here). I will usually give the numbers directly from Bass Box and let you deal with variables like room gain, baffle step, or such.
I'm sure the room gain response curve isn't quite flat either. At some point, as you lower the frequency, you must fall into the near-field range of the driver. That will depend on the frequency, room size and speaker distance from the boundries. At that point, I think you begain to lose the effects of room gain. The Behringer will tell you, if it goes that low (<15Hz).
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