Idiot of the Week.
And the idiot of the week award goes to... Niffy.
After performing my initial tests with the two rod rail I reset the tracking force to the manufacturer recommended 1.8g.
Only I didn't.
I set it to 2g.
The two rail really does make setting tracking force a pain. Ortofon cartridges always sound at their best at the recommended tracking force. I've reset the tracking force by ear and slightly lowered the rear of the arm.
The treble detail is back and then some. Dynamics across the whole range have stepped it up a notch. Stereo imaging is sharper. It's amazing the difference a couple of hundred milligrams can make.
I can now safely say that the two rod ball race version beats the pin bearing large wheel version across the board.
I promise to be more diligent in the future.
Niffy
And the idiot of the week award goes to... Niffy.
After performing my initial tests with the two rod rail I reset the tracking force to the manufacturer recommended 1.8g.
Only I didn't.
I set it to 2g.
The two rail really does make setting tracking force a pain. Ortofon cartridges always sound at their best at the recommended tracking force. I've reset the tracking force by ear and slightly lowered the rear of the arm.
The treble detail is back and then some. Dynamics across the whole range have stepped it up a notch. Stereo imaging is sharper. It's amazing the difference a couple of hundred milligrams can make.
I can now safely say that the two rod ball race version beats the pin bearing large wheel version across the board.
I promise to be more diligent in the future.
Niffy
Ahhh Niffy,
Don't be too hard on yourself, it's an easy mistake. Got this arm where I want it, I don't think about it
, just enjoy the dynamic, awesome soundstage and realism that comes from good vinyl. I am wondering if the pin bearing wasn't as good due to the decreased mechanical coupling?, this is the weakness of air bearing as there is no place for vibrations to go and they must be dealt with in the carriage.
Colin
Don't be too hard on yourself, it's an easy mistake. Got this arm where I want it, I don't think about it
, just enjoy the dynamic, awesome soundstage and realism that comes from good vinyl. I am wondering if the pin bearing wasn't as good due to the decreased mechanical coupling?, this is the weakness of air bearing as there is no place for vibrations to go and they must be dealt with in the carriage. Colin
what a great thread this is !!!
Colin, very nice design, I feel the same way about the air bearing not been as good as a "mechanically fixed" or "grounded" and also not as elegant.
Niffy, I see that you liked the "ball races" design (post #1672):
View attachment 407766
I think this could be a step up from the beautiful Cantus not only in terms of sonic quality as you already describe but also in the simplicity of the realization wish is something I really appreciate.
congratulations gentleman.
Colin, very nice design, I feel the same way about the air bearing not been as good as a "mechanically fixed" or "grounded" and also not as elegant.
Niffy, I see that you liked the "ball races" design (post #1672):
View attachment 407766
I think this could be a step up from the beautiful Cantus not only in terms of sonic quality as you already describe but also in the simplicity of the realization wish is something I really appreciate.
congratulations gentleman.
Hi Colin.
I actually laughed when I discovered my tracking force error.
With the initial setup with the pin bearings and large wheels the sound quality was MASSIVELY better than the rega. With the ball races every area has probably improved by a further 10% with the exception of stereo imaging. In this aspect I think it's twice as good. I still reckon that this is mainly due to the cantilever remaining more tangential to the groove.
I'm not sure if the ball races actually offer higher coupling than the pin bearings. The carriage definitely feels more solidly attached to the rail with the pin bearings. With the ball races I have noticed that the outer race remains upright and all vertical movement is entirely accommodated by the play in the bearing. This would suggest that the vertical plane friction is probably no higher than with the large wheels running on the 1mm rod. The next test will be with the pin bearings and the two rods. With this setup there is no bearing play so all vertical movement will have to be accommodated by sliding on the glass rods. This will act more like your original design with the single tube rail. I am hoping that this combine the best aspects of the two systems. I'm enjoying the current setup so much that I feel in no hurry to try this just yet.
Great to see your arm and deck setup as a whole, looks great. Are you using the original glass platter with an underlay mat? Have you tried an acrylic platter? The biggest single upgrade I made to my systemdek was replacing the glass platter/felt mat with a 15mm acrylic platter, diy of course. A good clamp to mate the vinyl to the platter was the second biggest upgrade.
Niffy
I actually laughed when I discovered my tracking force error.
With the initial setup with the pin bearings and large wheels the sound quality was MASSIVELY better than the rega. With the ball races every area has probably improved by a further 10% with the exception of stereo imaging. In this aspect I think it's twice as good. I still reckon that this is mainly due to the cantilever remaining more tangential to the groove.
I'm not sure if the ball races actually offer higher coupling than the pin bearings. The carriage definitely feels more solidly attached to the rail with the pin bearings. With the ball races I have noticed that the outer race remains upright and all vertical movement is entirely accommodated by the play in the bearing. This would suggest that the vertical plane friction is probably no higher than with the large wheels running on the 1mm rod. The next test will be with the pin bearings and the two rods. With this setup there is no bearing play so all vertical movement will have to be accommodated by sliding on the glass rods. This will act more like your original design with the single tube rail. I am hoping that this combine the best aspects of the two systems. I'm enjoying the current setup so much that I feel in no hurry to try this just yet.
Great to see your arm and deck setup as a whole, looks great. Are you using the original glass platter with an underlay mat? Have you tried an acrylic platter? The biggest single upgrade I made to my systemdek was replacing the glass platter/felt mat with a 15mm acrylic platter, diy of course. A good clamp to mate the vinyl to the platter was the second biggest upgrade.
Niffy
Hi Niffy,
The bearing and platter were scored from an old systemdek. The mat I use is 3 layers, bottom layer is inert floor tile which takes away any ring to the glass, middle layer cork and top layer craft foam with label center cut out. This was the most neutral mat I've ever heard, I thought about acrylic but its lighter thanthe glass so less flywheel effect. If I were to go acrylic I would go for a substantial thickness of platter, until then funds don't allow it unfortunately.
Colin
The bearing and platter were scored from an old systemdek. The mat I use is 3 layers, bottom layer is inert floor tile which takes away any ring to the glass, middle layer cork and top layer craft foam with label center cut out. This was the most neutral mat I've ever heard, I thought about acrylic but its lighter thanthe glass so less flywheel effect. If I were to go acrylic I would go for a substantial thickness of platter, until then funds don't allow it unfortunately.
Colin
Pin Bearing v Ball Race pt2
Hi all.
I know I said I was in no hurry to move on to the next part of the comparison but saying it put it in my mind so I just had to go for it.
I've now refitted the pin bearings but this time with the ball races being used as solid wheels, held from rotation by oversized hubs.
I set the tracking force to the recommended 1.8g.
Performing the pencil tap test gave similar results to the ball race test. The impact is just audible at normal levels but the harsh tone was gone. The harsh tone was probably caused by the ball bearings being rattled so is not something that would occur in normal use.
I have not yet tested for minimum tracking force as fully as last time but it does appear that minimum tracking force is quite a bit higher. This would suggest that the pin bearings present higher friction than the ball races. The last time the pin bearings were used it was with wheels of double the diameter. The larger wheels would effectively halve the bearing friction as seen by the cartridge. More experimentation in this area is definitely warranted.
So far I have only played a dozen or so sides so my impressions of sound quality are still formative. The sound is very very similar to the ball races. If I concentrate on any particular aspect of the sound the ball race version tends to come out on top. However there is an indefinable something to the overall sound with the pin bearings that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The pin bearings have opened a window to the very soul of the music.
Many more records will need to be played. Oh the hardship.
In fitting the ball races as wheels I had to very carefully position them as the play between inner and outer races tended to make them eccentric. This has presented a simple solution to the eccentricity problem I had with the large acrylic wheels. Drill out the M3 threaded centre hole with a slightly oversized hole then shift the wheels until concentricity is achieved the tighten the hubs to lock the wheel. Definitely easier said than done. My next test will probably be to try this.
Niffy
Hi all.
I know I said I was in no hurry to move on to the next part of the comparison but saying it put it in my mind so I just had to go for it.
I've now refitted the pin bearings but this time with the ball races being used as solid wheels, held from rotation by oversized hubs.
I set the tracking force to the recommended 1.8g.
Performing the pencil tap test gave similar results to the ball race test. The impact is just audible at normal levels but the harsh tone was gone. The harsh tone was probably caused by the ball bearings being rattled so is not something that would occur in normal use.
I have not yet tested for minimum tracking force as fully as last time but it does appear that minimum tracking force is quite a bit higher. This would suggest that the pin bearings present higher friction than the ball races. The last time the pin bearings were used it was with wheels of double the diameter. The larger wheels would effectively halve the bearing friction as seen by the cartridge. More experimentation in this area is definitely warranted.
So far I have only played a dozen or so sides so my impressions of sound quality are still formative. The sound is very very similar to the ball races. If I concentrate on any particular aspect of the sound the ball race version tends to come out on top. However there is an indefinable something to the overall sound with the pin bearings that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The pin bearings have opened a window to the very soul of the music.
Many more records will need to be played. Oh the hardship.
In fitting the ball races as wheels I had to very carefully position them as the play between inner and outer races tended to make them eccentric. This has presented a simple solution to the eccentricity problem I had with the large acrylic wheels. Drill out the M3 threaded centre hole with a slightly oversized hole then shift the wheels until concentricity is achieved the tighten the hubs to lock the wheel. Definitely easier said than done. My next test will probably be to try this.
Niffy
Hi Niffy, Great work!!!! You could try some "Bag Balm" for the back of your neck hairs. Don't know what they call it on your side of the pond.
BillG
Cheers Bill (I think).
Hadn't heard of big balm so I googled it.
Bag Balm is a salve developed in 1899 to soothe irritation on cows' udders after milking. The product is officially only meant for animals and is inspected as such by the United States.
I think I'll stick to vinyl and a hairy neck.
Niffy
Fantastic info here!
Hello! Obviously, I'm new here, but I just wanted to say that after reading this thread for the past few weeks I really appreciate that all of this information is out there on the Internet and not behind a paywall. A friend of mine pointed me to this thread when I told him I was going to try to build a mechanical linear-tracking system with as many "off the shelf" parts as I could find. Thanks to this thread, I have revised my design to something which I believe will work much better than what I had originally envisioned (and was already doubting success of, due to weight considerations).
My build will not be as spectacular, or as pretty, as what I've seen here. This will be my first foray into DIY audio of any kind, and I don't usually build things. The system I am building will need to be portable and not mounted to the same platform as the turntable, so it will be a compromise system. However, thanks to you all, the information, pictures, and theory I've read here, I know it will work!
Thanks again, and when I am done, I will post pictures if anyone's interested.
Best regards from "down south."
Hello! Obviously, I'm new here, but I just wanted to say that after reading this thread for the past few weeks I really appreciate that all of this information is out there on the Internet and not behind a paywall.
A friend of mine pointed me to this thread when I told him I was going to try to build a mechanical linear-tracking system with as many "off the shelf" parts as I could find. Thanks to this thread, I have revised my design to something which I believe will work much better than what I had originally envisioned (and was already doubting success of, due to weight considerations).My build will not be as spectacular, or as pretty, as what I've seen here. This will be my first foray into DIY audio of any kind, and I don't usually build things. The system I am building will need to be portable and not mounted to the same platform as the turntable, so it will be a compromise system. However, thanks to you all, the information, pictures, and theory I've read here, I know it will work!
Thanks again, and when I am done, I will post pictures if anyone's interested.
Best regards from "down south."
Don't put that stuff on your tonearm or it will be an ..... udder.... disaster
ok, someone had to say it...lol
ok, someone had to say it...lol
Hi Niffy ,
I was out of order for a couple weeks due to a nasty flu so not much going on here in therms of the arm process .
Thankfuly I'm on the better hand these days , so give me a week or so to get something spinning and tracking !
The rails contruction is completed , have to turn the pillars at this point . not sure if I got the right diameter bronze shaft laying around , but I guess brass will do a good job too .
More Later ,
THX ,
Paul
I was out of order for a couple weeks due to a nasty flu
so not much going on here in therms of the arm process . Thankfuly I'm on the better hand these days , so give me a week or so to get something spinning and tracking !
The rails contruction is completed , have to turn the pillars at this point . not sure if I got the right diameter bronze shaft laying around , but I guess brass will do a good job too .
More Later ,
THX ,
Paul