Hi Guys just looking for a bit of direction for making a Bipole/dipole set of spearkers for my HT set up.
Example like the Polk LSiFX speakers.
I have searched the forums but most of waht i have seen is large designs that i believe people are using for fronts?????
I want somthing along the Polk design to hang from my ceiling above and behind my sopha....
Is it possible to make these switchable between bipole an dipole? New to DIY and just need some direction.
Thanks
Example like the Polk LSiFX speakers.
I have searched the forums but most of waht i have seen is large designs that i believe people are using for fronts?????
I want somthing along the Polk design to hang from my ceiling above and behind my sopha....
Is it possible to make these switchable between bipole an dipole? New to DIY and just need some direction.
Thanks
A bipole speaker uses two or more drivers on multiple baffles facing in different directions, ala the Polks you mention, and are usually in enclosed cabinets; a dipole speaker mounts drivers on a single, open baffle, with no enclosure, so the driver(s) radiate both forward and backward (Linkwitz Orion).
Dipole speakers are usually not practical as surrounds because they need to be placed some distance from walls to achieve a delay between the front and rear waves reaching the listener, but it can probably be done.
I don't see how you could have a single speaker that can be "switched" between bipole and dipole, and I see no reason to attempt this. It's probably possible to build an "open baffle bipole" but I have no idea if it would be practical.
For surround speakers you should stick with small monopoles (bookshelf) or bipoles, and there are lots of kits and designs out there - take a look at PartsExpress and Zaph Audio, for example. Another design that might interest you can be found here:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_speaker.htm
What you decide to go with ultimately depends on things like budget, room size, the rest of your system, listening preferences, etc.
Hope this has been some help.
Dipole speakers are usually not practical as surrounds because they need to be placed some distance from walls to achieve a delay between the front and rear waves reaching the listener, but it can probably be done.
I don't see how you could have a single speaker that can be "switched" between bipole and dipole, and I see no reason to attempt this. It's probably possible to build an "open baffle bipole" but I have no idea if it would be practical.
For surround speakers you should stick with small monopoles (bookshelf) or bipoles, and there are lots of kits and designs out there - take a look at PartsExpress and Zaph Audio, for example. Another design that might interest you can be found here:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_speaker.htm
What you decide to go with ultimately depends on things like budget, room size, the rest of your system, listening preferences, etc.
Hope this has been some help.
the fun thing is that those polks i used as an example acctually do switch between Bipole and dipole ! However do they do it tho?(im not being a smart **** either)
Just a question of firing the drivers in phase or out of phase?
Also the infinity Beta es250 switches also seemingly 3 diffrent modes with mono. (no idea why)
I realize they have to be a bit away from the wall for reflection but what im using now is a foot or so away from the back wall and 6inchs of the ceiling.
I already have a set of Jbl's there now but want to upgrade/diy somthing diffrent then direct radiators like i have.
http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetai...416&srccode=cii_14110944&cpncode=08-6828628-2
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002552EC/002-7999169-5200027?v=glance&n=172282
examples
Sam
Just a question of firing the drivers in phase or out of phase?
Also the infinity Beta es250 switches also seemingly 3 diffrent modes with mono. (no idea why)
I realize they have to be a bit away from the wall for reflection but what im using now is a foot or so away from the back wall and 6inchs of the ceiling.
I already have a set of Jbl's there now but want to upgrade/diy somthing diffrent then direct radiators like i have.
http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetai...416&srccode=cii_14110944&cpncode=08-6828628-2
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002552EC/002-7999169-5200027?v=glance&n=172282
examples
Sam
I still don't see what the dipole aspect of these speakers is. Are they open baffle? Are they opened in the back?
However these things work we're talking about internal electronics here, so unless someone knows what's inside these things I'm clueless. You would have to be able to clone whatever circuitry is inside these speakers to get your DIYers to do the same thing.
What is it exactly that you want to achieve here? Have you listened to the Polks/Infinitys in action? And at over $900 for the Polks you should be able to come up with something satisfying on your own for a fraction of the price.
I'm guessing these are going to be primarily for home theater and you want to hear some great effects - for musical listening a multifunction surround speaker is "overbuilding" IMHO.
However these things work we're talking about internal electronics here, so unless someone knows what's inside these things I'm clueless. You would have to be able to clone whatever circuitry is inside these speakers to get your DIYers to do the same thing.
What is it exactly that you want to achieve here? Have you listened to the Polks/Infinitys in action? And at over $900 for the Polks you should be able to come up with something satisfying on your own for a fraction of the price.
I'm guessing these are going to be primarily for home theater and you want to hear some great effects - for musical listening a multifunction surround speaker is "overbuilding" IMHO.
You got it mostly HT is the plan although i do like to use my 7 channel stereo on my Denon reciever!
I saw an another Dipole/bipole once before by the Canadian firm FLuence i believe, they from what i recall used a Buterworth type crossover? that sound rite?
I have a freind who has a set of Paradigm speakers like this also that he got on special for around 700 bucks and really likes.....
But in the DIY world we can do it better cheaper and with our own hands! cant we????
I saw an another Dipole/bipole once before by the Canadian firm FLuence i believe, they from what i recall used a Buterworth type crossover? that sound rite?
I have a freind who has a set of Paradigm speakers like this also that he got on special for around 700 bucks and really likes.....
But in the DIY world we can do it better cheaper and with our own hands! cant we????
Your rite Pink sorry...... 
Is that possible with DIY crossover to do, reverse the polarity that is because thats the only dif between Dipole and bipole is in phase outa of phase from what i understand about them?
Course driving two midranges and 2 tweeters would probly be a fairly complex Xover anyway ? with that in mind how do you keep em at 8 Ohms also?
also to port or seal the seprate cahmbers? wish i had one to take apart and look at. lol but for that kinda coin no one would probly let me.
Sam
Is that possible with DIY crossover to do, reverse the polarity that is because thats the only dif between Dipole and bipole is in phase outa of phase from what i understand about them?
Course driving two midranges and 2 tweeters would probly be a fairly complex Xover anyway ? with that in mind how do you keep em at 8 Ohms also?
also to port or seal the seprate cahmbers? wish i had one to take apart and look at. lol but for that kinda coin no one would probly let me.
Sam
bostonswoop said:
The dipoles have the drivers mounted on the same baffle often with one facing the other direction. They are wired out of phase.
A bipole has the drivers mounted on different baffles, usually one facing forward and one back. There is separation between the drivers. They are wired in phase
Hey, real quick (in a hurry...)
That caterpillar post is mine. A synopsis of it, in much shorter form (uh, synopsis) can be found at www.t-linespeakers.com which you can also access through my website.
Second, I think those commercial dealies have to have a piece taken off of them to make them dipole. Not real sure, but that seems to be in my mind.
HTH
Dave
That caterpillar post is mine. A synopsis of it, in much shorter form (uh, synopsis) can be found at www.t-linespeakers.com which you can also access through my website.
Second, I think those commercial dealies have to have a piece taken off of them to make them dipole. Not real sure, but that seems to be in my mind.
HTH
Dave
When I look at those two example, I'm not sure I see what they are describing. I see a speaker with a 90 degree offset and a phase switch. How they call them bipoles, or dipoles, someone will have to explain to me. They don't seem to the fit the categories as I know them.
IMHO a bipole uses a second driver to splash sound off the back wall and give a certain depth to the sound. ie: a slight time delay
IMHO a dipole was invented by accident. They aren't for the ears of a PA guy like me. I've had the theory about distortion and whatever else explained a number of times but I'm yet to hear a set up I like.
I don't know what to call the commercial speakers, I just wonder why they chose that instead of coming up with a new name like "Center channels with strange lobing issues" No, that wouldn't sell, must be a better name than that.
How about Binaural Advanced Dispersion, Offset Direct Oscillating Radiators
or BAD ODOR for short
IMHO a bipole uses a second driver to splash sound off the back wall and give a certain depth to the sound. ie: a slight time delay
IMHO a dipole was invented by accident. They aren't for the ears of a PA guy like me. I've had the theory about distortion and whatever else explained a number of times but I'm yet to hear a set up I like.
I don't know what to call the commercial speakers, I just wonder why they chose that instead of coming up with a new name like "Center channels with strange lobing issues" No, that wouldn't sell, must be a better name than that.
How about Binaural Advanced Dispersion, Offset Direct Oscillating Radiators
or BAD ODOR for short
It sounds to me like all that the commercial speaker does is to include a switch that either puts (1) both drivers in phase = bipole, (2) both drivers out of phase = dipole, or (3) just one driver = monopole. It's true that option (2) is not a true dipole because it does not have a figure-8 dispersion pattern, but eh, what the heck, I say close enough. If you wanted to do this and make it work well, yes, you would have to build it so that the crossover worked as drivers switched in and out. The easiest way is just to have 2 full crossovers in there getting switched as well.
Bostonswoop,
CHeck out this Link
Scroll down to the double pole double throw switches. That should explain how to do it.
I have also thought of doing a diy bipolar surround. I have never gotten around to it since I already have a set.
I have never heard any dipoles as they are known around here, open baffle like the phoenix from linkwitzlab.com.
However I have heard several dipoles as the commercial world knows them. From polk, etc. I never liked the sound of dipoles like them.They sounded very un-natural to me. However I do like the sound of bipole surrounds. I have definitive technology BP2X's and really like them. I purchased them long before i knew about diy stuff(around 7 years ago). I am still quite happy with them,probably why I haven't built my own yet
Anyhow I was planning on kinda cloning my current surrounds which have 2-5 1/4" woofers and 2-1" tweeters. The speakers that caught my eye were from GR Research. They offer their 5 1/4" woofer in 16 ohm version and they are around 26.00 ea for the non shielded ones.
Your thread got me thinking so I tore one of my speakers apart to see whats up on the inside and I can tell you it doesn't seem much different than a 2-way bookshelf.
The woofers are indeed in parallel and the tweeters are also. The x-over is pretty simple looking and not very high quality. Tne port is just a cardboard tube. I took pics but my camera's battery went dead as soon as it is charged up I will load them on my pc and resize them and post a few if you are interested.
I think I figured it would be about 80.00-90.00 for drivers and and probably 30-50.00 for the x-over. There are probably better options but I figured with bipoles you are double the driver cost automatically so I tried to find reasonable priced ones.
CHeck out this Link
Scroll down to the double pole double throw switches. That should explain how to do it.
I have also thought of doing a diy bipolar surround. I have never gotten around to it since I already have a set.
I have never heard any dipoles as they are known around here, open baffle like the phoenix from linkwitzlab.com.
However I have heard several dipoles as the commercial world knows them. From polk, etc. I never liked the sound of dipoles like them.They sounded very un-natural to me. However I do like the sound of bipole surrounds. I have definitive technology BP2X's and really like them. I purchased them long before i knew about diy stuff(around 7 years ago). I am still quite happy with them,probably why I haven't built my own yet
Anyhow I was planning on kinda cloning my current surrounds which have 2-5 1/4" woofers and 2-1" tweeters. The speakers that caught my eye were from GR Research. They offer their 5 1/4" woofer in 16 ohm version and they are around 26.00 ea for the non shielded ones.
Your thread got me thinking so I tore one of my speakers apart to see whats up on the inside and I can tell you it doesn't seem much different than a 2-way bookshelf.
The woofers are indeed in parallel and the tweeters are also. The x-over is pretty simple looking and not very high quality. Tne port is just a cardboard tube. I took pics but my camera's battery went dead as soon as it is charged up I will load them on my pc and resize them and post a few if you are interested.
I think I figured it would be about 80.00-90.00 for drivers and and probably 30-50.00 for the x-over. There are probably better options but I figured with bipoles you are double the driver cost automatically so I tried to find reasonable priced ones.
"Dipole surrounds" are completely unlike open-baffle dipoles like the Linkwitz Orion or electrostatics. Dipole surround speakers are closed boxes, with or without a port, often trapezoidal in shape with the drivers facing away from each other on the non-parallel sides, and can be hung on the wall with no air space behind them. The drivers are wired out of phase, unlike the open baffle dipole in which the out-of-phase sound waves emanate from the front and back of the same driver.
Dipole surrounds are popular for home theater use because they are wall-mountable, and if you position them correctly so that the listening position is within the "null area," the sound has a nonlocalizable quality that many people prefer to an easily localizable monopole. If the monopole is far enough away, it might be fine, but usually it ends up being too close and too localizable. My surround dipoles are 6 feet from my ears and completely nonlocalizable.
The bipole/dipole switch simply gives the opposing drivers same or opposite polarity. A further refinement is the "adaptive dipole" which gives opposite polarity to the opposing tweeters, but same polarity to the woofers. The claimed advantage is preservation of the nonlocalizable effect with less bass cancellation.
In addition to the commercial brands mentioned, surround dipoles are available from KEF, B&W, Paradigm, Rocket, and others.
Here is a link for the Rocket.
I bought my KEF surround dipoles for $425 a pair. They were a discontinued pair. They looked nice in the photos, but when I inspected them up close I discovered that they are fake wood veneer. You can see the halftone dots in the "wood" pattern. So that is why I am building DIY from now on.
Dipole surrounds are popular for home theater use because they are wall-mountable, and if you position them correctly so that the listening position is within the "null area," the sound has a nonlocalizable quality that many people prefer to an easily localizable monopole. If the monopole is far enough away, it might be fine, but usually it ends up being too close and too localizable. My surround dipoles are 6 feet from my ears and completely nonlocalizable.
The bipole/dipole switch simply gives the opposing drivers same or opposite polarity. A further refinement is the "adaptive dipole" which gives opposite polarity to the opposing tweeters, but same polarity to the woofers. The claimed advantage is preservation of the nonlocalizable effect with less bass cancellation.
In addition to the commercial brands mentioned, surround dipoles are available from KEF, B&W, Paradigm, Rocket, and others.
Here is a link for the Rocket.
I bought my KEF surround dipoles for $425 a pair. They were a discontinued pair. They looked nice in the photos, but when I inspected them up close I discovered that they are fake wood veneer. You can see the halftone dots in the "wood" pattern. So that is why I am building DIY from now on.
Mark great link on the switches thats very helpfull.
Before entering this forum i also had no idea of the large pannel type dipoles. I was under the assumption that the dipoles people were discussing here were of the nature i had seen before. Didint take long for me to see i was way off. (or somthing)
So for some time i have wanted a pair of bipole/dipoles for my surounds but like many budget came into play.
So Mark are you just going to clone you current models?
Im just trying to figure out where to start with building my pair. The crossover is intemidating to me also...
Kneadle, I acctually stayed up the other night for a couple hours reading your post about the TL worm pipes. Good stuff i was amazed how much people got into the design of those.
Javachip, currently my rear speakers are about 7 to 8 ft away from my sitting area so i should have no problem with distance and i have my current radiators just off the ceiling anyway. Are your Kefs switchable?
OH mark are yours either? wonder if its even worth it or just a gimmicky. what mode do either of you like the best?
I really think this will be a fun project that will be worthwhile, thats code for selling em to the wife, to replace the rears i have now.
So where to start.....
Oh and Mark i would like to see those pics for sure.
Before entering this forum i also had no idea of the large pannel type dipoles. I was under the assumption that the dipoles people were discussing here were of the nature i had seen before. Didint take long for me to see i was way off. (or somthing)
So for some time i have wanted a pair of bipole/dipoles for my surounds but like many budget came into play.
So Mark are you just going to clone you current models?
Im just trying to figure out where to start with building my pair. The crossover is intemidating to me also...
Kneadle, I acctually stayed up the other night for a couple hours reading your post about the TL worm pipes. Good stuff i was amazed how much people got into the design of those.
Javachip, currently my rear speakers are about 7 to 8 ft away from my sitting area so i should have no problem with distance and i have my current radiators just off the ceiling anyway. Are your Kefs switchable?
OH mark are yours either? wonder if its even worth it or just a gimmicky. what mode do either of you like the best?
I really think this will be a fun project that will be worthwhile, thats code for selling em to the wife, to replace the rears i have now.
So where to start.....
Oh and Mark i would like to see those pics for sure.
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