I thank you all guys to answer our friend about CCS
Yes.... the supression of the suck out condenser was made knowing that it can be helpfull, and it was tested.
I hope Nickwall and Paul Robertson had answers...as i agree with my friends, those ones produced answers...dear Greg and dear Sparkle, both them personal, close friends, please, make their words have the same value as mine.
Thanks Greg.
Thanks Sparkle.
And never mind Trinitus...relax and be happy.
I am producing boards to 3 stereos now...Paulinho had ordered two channels...model SparkleX...the Ignitor.
I am working with your last boards Greg...and was intuitive...or i have realised that the dimension had to be that...as it fit the big transistor exactly...i made some testings using the printer.
The image attached is my best friend Paulinho, at his side the famous, International Percussionist....drummer...sound effects, called Naná Vasconcelos...Nanah in your language.
regards,
Carlos
Yes.... the supression of the suck out condenser was made knowing that it can be helpfull, and it was tested.
I hope Nickwall and Paul Robertson had answers...as i agree with my friends, those ones produced answers...dear Greg and dear Sparkle, both them personal, close friends, please, make their words have the same value as mine.
Thanks Greg.
Thanks Sparkle.
And never mind Trinitus...relax and be happy.
I am producing boards to 3 stereos now...Paulinho had ordered two channels...model SparkleX...the Ignitor.
I am working with your last boards Greg...and was intuitive...or i have realised that the dimension had to be that...as it fit the big transistor exactly...i made some testings using the printer.
The image attached is my best friend Paulinho, at his side the famous, International Percussionist....drummer...sound effects, called Naná Vasconcelos...Nanah in your language.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Re: All rigth Sparkle...if you are telling me that is because it is true
No apology is necessary, perhaps it should be me to apologise as there may have been an error in your picture. The problem is that in your text it says '400 watts' but the picture shows a load resistor with '3.2 ohms resistive wire holding 19 sinusoidal volts', so what is in the picture is clearly not 400W. I expect the picture was for the nromal DX amp, not the turbo.
BTW, my remark about the resistve wire still stands, as i have been using a setup similar to yours in the past (OK, my resistive wire was being held by two nails
), and have been fooled by it.
Regarding your amp, I did not criticise, in fact, in quoting ineup i said that I would only be uncomfortable without a Vbe multiplier to set the bias (too many dead output transistors in my youth!) and would probably remove the right-hand collector resistor of the input LTP. Was that tried as well? The rest seems just fine to me.
BTW you can see one of my recent constructions at the following link... no schematics, it's still under developement:
http://www.audiofil.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7170
destroyer X said:
No apology is necessary, perhaps it should be me to apologise as there may have been an error in your picture. The problem is that in your text it says '400 watts' but the picture shows a load resistor with '3.2 ohms resistive wire holding 19 sinusoidal volts', so what is in the picture is clearly not 400W. I expect the picture was for the nromal DX amp, not the turbo.
BTW, my remark about the resistve wire still stands, as i have been using a setup similar to yours in the past (OK, my resistive wire was being held by two nails
), and have been fooled by it.Regarding your amp, I did not criticise, in fact, in quoting ineup i said that I would only be uncomfortable without a Vbe multiplier to set the bias (too many dead output transistors in my youth!) and would probably remove the right-hand collector resistor of the input LTP. Was that tried as well? The rest seems just fine to me.
BTW you can see one of my recent constructions at the following link... no schematics, it's still under developement:
http://www.audiofil.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7170
ilimzn - my question
ilimzn
I guess you did miss my post.
It is post #100 .. right after your post #99 (which made carlos a bit upset)
I asked you a question, for some hints to an issue I deal with.
If you answer here, make it shorter answer ... than my postsings
I guess Carlos can accept a few 'out of topic posts'
.. he is many times posting such way-off-topics elsewhere, himself
But we try to make off-topic as fewew and as small posts, as possible
**********************
My question relates to Carlos use of resistive wire.
And this was what your post #99 was about
Regards
lineup
ilimzn
I guess you did miss my post.
It is post #100 .. right after your post #99 (which made carlos a bit upset)
I asked you a question, for some hints to an issue I deal with.
If you answer here, make it shorter answer ... than my postsings
I guess Carlos can accept a few 'out of topic posts'
.. he is many times posting such way-off-topics elsewhere, himself
But we try to make off-topic as fewew and as small posts, as possible
**********************
My question relates to Carlos use of resistive wire.
And this was what your post #99 was about
Regards
lineup
Ilyzm, thanks by your link...pretty work..congratulation..let us know your schematic
please....the one related your constructions posted in the Croatian forum....well..i would love to to understand your language....a big frustration i have... i cannot understand.
Sparkle said you are a very nice guy in the Croatian forum...so.... i have misunderstood you...i took your words from a bad point of view.
I continue to think that you may be those ones loves to search for snake legs...and those guys use to produce a lot of work in foruns...as they block the rithm, forcing us to explain our reasons to decide this and that...this is something that makes me tired to tell you the true.
The Vbe multiplier, as you know represents only a variable resistance to set 2.5 volts (or other voltage) from colector to emitter...off course that voltage is with zero volt centered to allow bias for the output unit....and i hate to say those very basic things that may annoy a lot of people.
In my point of view, it is a resistance..working as resistance...as voltage is developed over it's extremes.....a variable one, thermically tracked resistance...sensitive to heat, that will reduce that voltage depending to the heat...reason why those VBE multiplier transistors are attached to heatsink....you see..i am talking...and you know those things.
I have no problem against VBE multiplier...my problem is related people that can imagine that others do not know that need, how they work and how to calculate them...people that may imagine (not you case, as explained by dear Sparkle) that others had not studied and are publishing things with errors...not because decisions were taken before about that subject....my case is more than 40 years of experience (practice, constructing daily, at a rate of 2 amplifier a week average) to decide those things.
I have posted one option related those VBE multipliers...having not the transistor working there....but having the diodes working...was three junctions that will produce a good result too...alike the famous Doctor Leach suggested.
My option, even living in a hot environment....as here 29 degrées is a very constant temperature, is to use bigger than needed heatsinks...well...i just have them and i think they are good and i can avoid some circuit...removing a transistor.... making it simple and cheap.
But people have their own brains and they can go to different decisions...and produce their own amplifier...with their good Vbes...even using complementary VBEs and other sophisticated circuits the one can imagine or create....but this is not my beach..this is not my intention.... the opposite...Dx is simple, to be simple, to continue simple, and the intention is to turn it more simple.
I hope this can finish that last "exciting chapter" and that we can march into the future as good friends.
I suggest you to publish, if you have not made it already, some amplifier to us...hehe...i will be there to ask the reasons you have to use VBE multiplier instead of diodes or resistances...hehe...i am bad....hehe....very bad!
regards,
Carlos
please....the one related your constructions posted in the Croatian forum....well..i would love to to understand your language....a big frustration i have... i cannot understand.
Sparkle said you are a very nice guy in the Croatian forum...so.... i have misunderstood you...i took your words from a bad point of view.
I continue to think that you may be those ones loves to search for snake legs...and those guys use to produce a lot of work in foruns...as they block the rithm, forcing us to explain our reasons to decide this and that...this is something that makes me tired to tell you the true.
The Vbe multiplier, as you know represents only a variable resistance to set 2.5 volts (or other voltage) from colector to emitter...off course that voltage is with zero volt centered to allow bias for the output unit....and i hate to say those very basic things that may annoy a lot of people.
In my point of view, it is a resistance..working as resistance...as voltage is developed over it's extremes.....a variable one, thermically tracked resistance...sensitive to heat, that will reduce that voltage depending to the heat...reason why those VBE multiplier transistors are attached to heatsink....you see..i am talking...and you know those things.
I have no problem against VBE multiplier...my problem is related people that can imagine that others do not know that need, how they work and how to calculate them...people that may imagine (not you case, as explained by dear Sparkle) that others had not studied and are publishing things with errors...not because decisions were taken before about that subject....my case is more than 40 years of experience (practice, constructing daily, at a rate of 2 amplifier a week average) to decide those things.
I have posted one option related those VBE multipliers...having not the transistor working there....but having the diodes working...was three junctions that will produce a good result too...alike the famous Doctor Leach suggested.
My option, even living in a hot environment....as here 29 degrées is a very constant temperature, is to use bigger than needed heatsinks...well...i just have them and i think they are good and i can avoid some circuit...removing a transistor.... making it simple and cheap.
But people have their own brains and they can go to different decisions...and produce their own amplifier...with their good Vbes...even using complementary VBEs and other sophisticated circuits the one can imagine or create....but this is not my beach..this is not my intention.... the opposite...Dx is simple, to be simple, to continue simple, and the intention is to turn it more simple.
I hope this can finish that last "exciting chapter" and that we can march into the future as good friends.
I suggest you to publish, if you have not made it already, some amplifier to us...hehe...i will be there to ask the reasons you have to use VBE multiplier instead of diodes or resistances...hehe...i am bad....hehe....very bad!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Re: Ilyzm, thanks by your link...pretty work..congratulation..let us know your schematic
I know what you mean, but it is exactly reading about these decisions that alowes me to learn. It is very difficult to use the fact that something works better if i add or remove a component, unless i can, at least slightly, explain to myself why. Without the 'why' I have to 'fly blind'. i guess i am very insecure that way
Oh, I know you know what the Vbe multiplier is for, no problem there. The reason why I commented was not your choice but something Lineup said regarding the use of other transistors instead of 2SC5200/2SA1943.
In any case, using 3 diodes and a resistor will do just fine. The only reason I prefer Vbe multipliers is because it's generally easyer to mount a transistor like BD139/140 onto the heatsink, but I have used other methods as well. Like you have your choices, i have some of mine, so the Vbe multiplier is one fo them - I am not trying to say my choice is better - besides, whoever builds the amp can try it for themselves.
So do I!
Why bad? I would be glad to explain my choice. Besides my last amp uses a Vgs multiplier hehehe
I know what you mean, but it is exactly reading about these decisions that alowes me to learn. It is very difficult to use the fact that something works better if i add or remove a component, unless i can, at least slightly, explain to myself why. Without the 'why' I have to 'fly blind'. i guess i am very insecure that way
Oh, I know you know what the Vbe multiplier is for, no problem there. The reason why I commented was not your choice but something Lineup said regarding the use of other transistors instead of 2SC5200/2SA1943.
In any case, using 3 diodes and a resistor will do just fine. The only reason I prefer Vbe multipliers is because it's generally easyer to mount a transistor like BD139/140 onto the heatsink, but I have used other methods as well. Like you have your choices, i have some of mine, so the Vbe multiplier is one fo them - I am not trying to say my choice is better - besides, whoever builds the amp can try it for themselves.
So do I!
Why bad? I would be glad to explain my choice. Besides my last amp uses a Vgs multiplier hehehe
Damn I'd like to be anywhere but here now.. It's freakin MINUS 20 degrees celcius outside even inside There's more worry about if my amp has the correct linear temp compensation for coldness than for heat hehe..
Well I must respect someone that likes to do things irl, actually try for real and listen how it sounds, that's nice..hmm I think of the simulator(multisim in my case) like a tool between my imagination and a result.. most often it will fail but I dont lose money and time on trying for real.. (Regarding "simulator people" well it's mostly a thing of I dont have time or money to lose on many irl experiments gone bad..)
Thought about that with ccs'es and i think it does make sense not using them in the input stage since they doesnt do much good there anyway as in other places..maybe even makes things worse if the're slow.. Bootstrapping vas seems effective and fast,eliminates the need for maybe an extra buffer stage or running vas stage with ccs hot to be able to drive .. well since you said ..construiction is already done I guess I should have thought of what i wrote hmm hehe..
A thing I know is.. simple amplifiers can sound nice if done right. I made one for myself and I'm VERY pleased with the sound still, since I like a bit of laid back soft treble(ccs sound)..
I'm probably the wrong person to build your DX..
One thing in general I can see sometimes a bit of in forums (Trying not to critisise persons too much now) is that if someone "unknown" comes up with an idea and it looks like a design done 30years ago and maybe a 1000different versions there will be like one reply saying like "been there done that" and that's the end of that thread..
I react a little to page one in this tread.. PLEASE with sugar on top please I'm SURE the amp sound's good(remember I did a simple one and it's awsome) but could you maybe consider keeping the bragging on maybe a lower level.. hehhe.. One might almost take personal offense to this page one. it's a bit much.. please..
And remember folks. don't learn too much at once ,you might loose the power of imagination If you don't continue to learn stuff all the time..
(I actually learned a few things through this thread i'm happy for that)..
Well I must respect someone that likes to do things irl, actually try for real and listen how it sounds, that's nice..hmm I think of the simulator(multisim in my case) like a tool between my imagination and a result.. most often it will fail but I dont lose money and time on trying for real.. (Regarding "simulator people" well it's mostly a thing of I dont have time or money to lose on many irl experiments gone bad..)
Thought about that with ccs'es and i think it does make sense not using them in the input stage since they doesnt do much good there anyway as in other places..maybe even makes things worse if the're slow.. Bootstrapping vas seems effective and fast,eliminates the need for maybe an extra buffer stage or running vas stage with ccs hot to be able to drive .. well since you said ..construiction is already done I guess I should have thought of what i wrote hmm hehe..
A thing I know is.. simple amplifiers can sound nice if done right. I made one for myself and I'm VERY pleased with the sound still, since I like a bit of laid back soft treble(ccs sound)..
I'm probably the wrong person to build your DX..
One thing in general I can see sometimes a bit of in forums (Trying not to critisise persons too much now) is that if someone "unknown" comes up with an idea and it looks like a design done 30years ago and maybe a 1000different versions there will be like one reply saying like "been there done that" and that's the end of that thread..
I react a little to page one in this tread.. PLEASE with sugar on top please I'm SURE the amp sound's good(remember I did a simple one and it's awsome) but could you maybe consider keeping the bragging on maybe a lower level.. hehhe.. One might almost take personal offense to this page one. it's a bit much.. please..
And remember folks. don't learn too much at once ,you might loose the power of imagination If you don't continue to learn stuff all the time..
(I actually learned a few things through this thread i'm happy for that)..
nikwal said:
Vasteras ... hmmm
I am a bit north of you ... lappstaden Lycksele
But cold here, too .... 120 cm from my keyboard .. outside is: -22.6 C right now.
Last night was -26.5 C .. this night I am expecting near to -30 C
I also use MultiSim. It is very good simulator.
My biggest issue has been Library of transistors suitable for audio:
you know: JFET, MOSFET and Power BJT Output
Those most often used and mentioned in our dear forum.
I still havent had success adding IRF610 .. and this is bad!
***********************
I am in progress to order some Transistors and stuff. Heatsinks!
Maybe I will build a DX-Amp version
maybe some of my own good Power amps ... I havent decided yet
There are quite a few Internet shops for Components:
http://www.elfa.se/ ... number one
http://www.bejoken.se/ ... interesting!
http://www.autemashop.com/
http://www.trimlog.se/
http://www.sl-elektronik.d.se/
http://www.labb.se/
http://www.bhiab.se/
http://www.elektronikkomponent.se/
http://www.svebry.se/
http://www.svebry.se/sur_01.htm .... SURPLUS for SALE = REA
and for TUBES:
http://www.lh-musik.se/
They all have some stuff that is good and fair prices.
But only ELFA has most everything.
Regards
lineup - has got his fingers itching .. to build a great Power Amp .. Once again!
I have perceived that some "noise".."challenge"... a little bit of exageration c
call some attention...and as you perceived i did that.
You are pis... Nikwall may be thinking...how you deer to make that?...ahahahha....
In Brazil we use to go directly...to talk frankly, even rude things...third world my dear.... just that.....but there are different people here...all nations are inside this country.
Call attention to my thread only, beeing crazy and agressive was the trick used...good to ones, bad to others..can atract some guys and the opposite to others.
I do not believe my amplifier is the best amplifier in the world.... because the day someone discovered the better one..maybe in the second day another better one will be the new magnificent amplifier.
Good man.!..now i know where is Lineup geographic position...ahahahha....you may turn close friends, as you are very near one each other...enjoy that people!, you talk the same language and you can complain about temperature one to the other...and speaking in your own language....great that!
....................................................................................................
Ilyzm...all rigth...i will explain those things you want...just tell me what you want to know.. having something about this amplifier that you do not know, i will try to help...i will do that...but be sure that there are things there, that are there, because people do the same, and because that part removed created problems to the amplifier work or sonics...a very practical aproach, i do not have theory, also i do not like...i love to listen, as this i know how to do...calculations i use to send them to computers...or calculating machines.
regards,
Carlos
.......................................................................................................
call some attention...and as you perceived i did that.
You are pis... Nikwall may be thinking...how you deer to make that?...ahahahha....
In Brazil we use to go directly...to talk frankly, even rude things...third world my dear.... just that.....but there are different people here...all nations are inside this country.
Call attention to my thread only, beeing crazy and agressive was the trick used...good to ones, bad to others..can atract some guys and the opposite to others.
I do not believe my amplifier is the best amplifier in the world.... because the day someone discovered the better one..maybe in the second day another better one will be the new magnificent amplifier.
Good man.!..now i know where is Lineup geographic position...ahahahha....you may turn close friends, as you are very near one each other...enjoy that people!, you talk the same language and you can complain about temperature one to the other...and speaking in your own language....great that!
....................................................................................................
Ilyzm...all rigth...i will explain those things you want...just tell me what you want to know.. having something about this amplifier that you do not know, i will try to help...i will do that...but be sure that there are things there, that are there, because people do the same, and because that part removed created problems to the amplifier work or sonics...a very practical aproach, i do not have theory, also i do not like...i love to listen, as this i know how to do...calculations i use to send them to computers...or calculating machines.
regards,
Carlos
.......................................................................................................
This is what I have around my place
some C-core trafos, 2 x 22V, 1.5A
I can wire each in paralel to get 3A, one trafo for each rail
And I have enough to make monoamps
Two nice heatsinks, 150 x 120 x 40 mm
8A switch diodes
MJL 21193/94
And even some BG caps
I might even have some of the rest
I will see if I can hardwire this as a 2-layer board
With those small trafos it will be limited in power, but it will play - might work nice with a fullrange or as tweeter amp
some C-core trafos, 2 x 22V, 1.5A
I can wire each in paralel to get 3A, one trafo for each rail
And I have enough to make monoamps
Two nice heatsinks, 150 x 120 x 40 mm
8A switch diodes
MJL 21193/94
And even some BG caps
I might even have some of the rest
I will see if I can hardwire this as a 2-layer board
With those small trafos it will be limited in power, but it will play - might work nice with a fullrange or as tweeter amp
Because of transformer power the amplifier will be very strange
Constant sinus power will not be possible to sustain above ...say 15 watts (or something so small this way)
But having good electrolitic condensers to hold some energy...you may have interesting peaks..
The amplifier will distort in the reality, but as Sparkle said...keeping volume low you will be happy.
If you decide to use both transformers, join them together after rectification and filtering...this way you will have full power.
70 watts RMS over 4 ohms
35 watts RMS over 8 ohms
I was watching it in the simulator....not so bad as i was imagining...it may turn a 10 watts amplifier with incredible short time peak power...hehe...interesting behavior.
regards,
Carlos
Constant sinus power will not be possible to sustain above ...say 15 watts (or something so small this way)
But having good electrolitic condensers to hold some energy...you may have interesting peaks..
The amplifier will distort in the reality, but as Sparkle said...keeping volume low you will be happy.
If you decide to use both transformers, join them together after rectification and filtering...this way you will have full power.
70 watts RMS over 4 ohms
35 watts RMS over 8 ohms
I was watching it in the simulator....not so bad as i was imagining...it may turn a 10 watts amplifier with incredible short time peak power...hehe...interesting behavior.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
I was using, because decide to do this way, a very cheap, common, standard and not
so good transistors.... when i did that i was thinking about many sittuations i could testimony....people not constructing things because they did not have "that" transistor.
Many guys believe that if you change the transistor, let's imagine, for instance, transistor 12345 by another one..12346, that everything will not work fine anymore...that the amplifier will turn unballanced...that may not sound the same...well...people will feel insecure...not safe.
In the reality, things are not so hard this way...and the enormous quantity of transistors happened because during early days, the factories had not sure about what will be ready related the things beeing "cooked" in the owen..... the waffer, when ready was tested and "good" and "junk" was separated...and them the 2N3055 they wish to produce, in the reality, after measurement was another one...with small variation related the one they intended to construct....now a days things are different, but you still have some variations that explains the enormous quantity of audio transistors...all them work fine.
Respect maximum voltage swing...maximum current... attention with the gain, observe the maximum workable frequency, the power dissipation is adequated or not...and if all those things match your needs the new unit you were searching will fit...guaranteed.
Then i have used those low frequency transistors...i am not sure, but they may not oscilate over 10 Megaherts...not sure about...have to observe data sheet....TIP41 and TIP42 are for audio purposes.... 30 to 60 watts dissipation...30 real and 60 fake... 6 amperes and i think much more than 60 volts...well...my imagination only...i am experienced with them, using them, and they fit plus 35 and negative 35 volts...the standard voltage i use normally to everything i do here.
Observe the TIP42.... beeing PNP, as usual, it has more gain than the NPN...reason why people prefer to use PNP in the first stages.
regards,
Carlos
so good transistors.... when i did that i was thinking about many sittuations i could testimony....people not constructing things because they did not have "that" transistor.
Many guys believe that if you change the transistor, let's imagine, for instance, transistor 12345 by another one..12346, that everything will not work fine anymore...that the amplifier will turn unballanced...that may not sound the same...well...people will feel insecure...not safe.
In the reality, things are not so hard this way...and the enormous quantity of transistors happened because during early days, the factories had not sure about what will be ready related the things beeing "cooked" in the owen..... the waffer, when ready was tested and "good" and "junk" was separated...and them the 2N3055 they wish to produce, in the reality, after measurement was another one...with small variation related the one they intended to construct....now a days things are different, but you still have some variations that explains the enormous quantity of audio transistors...all them work fine.
Respect maximum voltage swing...maximum current... attention with the gain, observe the maximum workable frequency, the power dissipation is adequated or not...and if all those things match your needs the new unit you were searching will fit...guaranteed.
Then i have used those low frequency transistors...i am not sure, but they may not oscilate over 10 Megaherts...not sure about...have to observe data sheet....TIP41 and TIP42 are for audio purposes.... 30 to 60 watts dissipation...30 real and 60 fake... 6 amperes and i think much more than 60 volts...well...my imagination only...i am experienced with them, using them, and they fit plus 35 and negative 35 volts...the standard voltage i use normally to everything i do here.
Observe the TIP42.... beeing PNP, as usual, it has more gain than the NPN...reason why people prefer to use PNP in the first stages.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Well...i decided to use them..even this way...and nothing happened,
The transistors sounded great(TIP41 and TIP42 as drivers)..sonics were excelent, the amplifier was not unballanced...VBE voltages very good and almost the same related NPN and PNP....i had not off set problems to adjust...i have also not Bias problems to compensate.
They sound beautifull...even beeing low frequency units.... their cut off higher than audio frequencies.... many times higher.
Then, i decided to stop a little to install better ones...not so good related maximum voltage swing...so...i had some fear that problems could burn one of them...as they cannot hold the peak to peak voltage from my supply...but i accept the risk to test, once more, those things that i have strong belief.
I decided to install 100 Megahertz, modern units...better...much better than TIP41 and TIP42..
This is one of them.
regards,
Carlos
The transistors sounded great(TIP41 and TIP42 as drivers)..sonics were excelent, the amplifier was not unballanced...VBE voltages very good and almost the same related NPN and PNP....i had not off set problems to adjust...i have also not Bias problems to compensate.
They sound beautifull...even beeing low frequency units.... their cut off higher than audio frequencies.... many times higher.
Then, i decided to stop a little to install better ones...not so good related maximum voltage swing...so...i had some fear that problems could burn one of them...as they cannot hold the peak to peak voltage from my supply...but i accept the risk to test, once more, those things that i have strong belief.
I decided to install 100 Megahertz, modern units...better...much better than TIP41 and TIP42..
This is one of them.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
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