well my system is up and running =) it is absolutely amazing.. but now i find myself sitting towards the right.. my left speaker wasn't enabl'd properly.. but its amazing how much smoother the whole response is. and i dont even have the notch filter... i made up for it with a microgloss dot on the phase plug.. i found that it helped.
it is actually 2 different things. My speaker wasn't enabl'd properly because it was my first one and the dots got smudged together and they were off etc etc.. it was just ugly
the microdot idea I kind of took off planet10's pvc dot on the tip of the phaseplug. I essentially painted the microgloss 40/60 cut (60% h2o) over the phaseplug and flipped the driver upside down to dry. the result was a collection "a droplet" of microgloss that has created into a perfect dot right in the middle tip of the phaseplug. I have found it eases alot of the harshness, and I am debating not to even put in a notch filter as I can listen at any volume for hours on end =). I have found it very similar to before this treatment when I was running a software eq with a 7db cut at 2.5k
the microdot idea I kind of took off planet10's pvc dot on the tip of the phaseplug. I essentially painted the microgloss 40/60 cut (60% h2o) over the phaseplug and flipped the driver upside down to dry. the result was a collection "a droplet" of microgloss that has created into a perfect dot right in the middle tip of the phaseplug. I have found it eases alot of the harshness, and I am debating not to even put in a notch filter as I can listen at any volume for hours on end =). I have found it very similar to before this treatment when I was running a software eq with a 7db cut at 2.5k
Loudness control as 'notch'
I have had my Needles in my bedroom system for about a year and have not enjoyed them until today. I thought they were too forward and really needed the notch. I just never got around to making the notch filter. The bass did not seem to be there either. I had no tone controls to play with. LM1875 gainclone.
A buddy gave me his old Yamaha A-520 integrated amp recently that has an adjustable Loudness control. It is an adjustable notch filter. I do not know what the centre frequency is but it really attenuates the mids and at its extreme I have to crank the amp's volume control almost all the way up to get any volume at all. Playing with this control I have tamed the mid harshness and the bass is now apparent. I am also running an Apex Jr. cheap $1 tweeter which a few guys here on DIYAudio think are okay. It is crossed at about 8khz. I am not buying the FR thing...or I just cannot hear treble frequencies very well.
But now I am very happy with em. I should have made the notches a year ago.
I have had my Needles in my bedroom system for about a year and have not enjoyed them until today. I thought they were too forward and really needed the notch. I just never got around to making the notch filter. The bass did not seem to be there either. I had no tone controls to play with. LM1875 gainclone.
A buddy gave me his old Yamaha A-520 integrated amp recently that has an adjustable Loudness control. It is an adjustable notch filter. I do not know what the centre frequency is but it really attenuates the mids and at its extreme I have to crank the amp's volume control almost all the way up to get any volume at all. Playing with this control I have tamed the mid harshness and the bass is now apparent. I am also running an Apex Jr. cheap $1 tweeter which a few guys here on DIYAudio think are okay. It is crossed at about 8khz. I am not buying the FR thing...or I just cannot hear treble frequencies very well.
But now I am very happy with em. I should have made the notches a year ago.
Measurements of my AP6 Needle (post #543), and comparison with Bass Reflex :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1891518#post1891518
Patrick
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1891518#post1891518
Patrick
The drivers arrived, and I just spent the evening installing them. The cutout was larger than that required by the HiVi B3S so it took quite a bit of effort with a handsaw to get the holes made! (Firing up the jigsaw at 10pm is not going to win me any friends in my apartment block)
After wiring up the notch filter (as per henkjan's specs) and wrestling it into the cab (fixed with hotglue to the top) the alpairs went in and after tightening the last screw it was already midnight
So I haven't had the opportunity to really let them sing yet, but even listening at low volume I can tell these have waay more detail than the B3S! And not in a painful top-heavy way, but rather the tiny details especially in female vocals and also in their breaths between lines
I ran a test sweep from 20hz to 20khz, and the alpairs were pumping out volume a good 2 seconds before the b3s' were. Of course a scientific test means little, but I was curious anyway!
I then decided to play one of the high definition recordings off the chesky ultimate demo disc at a slightly naughty volume... and for the first time ever, i got a genuine tingle running down my back from the base of my neck. Something about the vocal quality with these drivers is just surreal; can't wait til the weekend when I can really pump these up!
After wiring up the notch filter (as per henkjan's specs) and wrestling it into the cab (fixed with hotglue to the top) the alpairs went in and after tightening the last screw it was already midnight
So I haven't had the opportunity to really let them sing yet, but even listening at low volume I can tell these have waay more detail than the B3S! And not in a painful top-heavy way, but rather the tiny details especially in female vocals and also in their breaths between lines
I ran a test sweep from 20hz to 20khz, and the alpairs were pumping out volume a good 2 seconds before the b3s' were. Of course a scientific test means little, but I was curious anyway!
I then decided to play one of the high definition recordings off the chesky ultimate demo disc at a slightly naughty volume... and for the first time ever, i got a genuine tingle running down my back from the base of my neck. Something about the vocal quality with these drivers is just surreal; can't wait til the weekend when I can really pump these up!
Dear Chylld,
Thanks for posting your first impressions I thought what you said might be the case
One of the most likeable assets of the Needle design, after being dead easy to make, is its ability to use many drivers, starting with the humble Visaton FRS8 (which I still use and am continually impressed by) right through to the Alpair 6, with many choices in between.
It is the simple audio DIY'ers dream come true and its performance is nothing short of wonderful.
Hope to hear more from you soon.
Jem
I see the thread will soon go past the 150,000 mark
Anyone who lives not far from the UK East Midlands is more than welcome to have a listen before making a pair.
Thanks for posting your first impressions I thought what you said might be the case
One of the most likeable assets of the Needle design, after being dead easy to make, is its ability to use many drivers, starting with the humble Visaton FRS8 (which I still use and am continually impressed by) right through to the Alpair 6, with many choices in between.
It is the simple audio DIY'ers dream come true and its performance is nothing short of wonderful.
Hope to hear more from you soon.
Jem
I see the thread will soon go past the 150,000 mark
Anyone who lives not far from the UK East Midlands is more than welcome to have a listen before making a pair.
EUVL said:
Most probably not. All of the graphs I've seen suggest that the Needle is technically inferior to other basic designs e.g. the tabaq. For me though, the needle is the design that intrigued me enough to experiment with full-range speakers, and I love my pair too much!
I've been listening to them now at a decent volume and am amazed at how much better they are compared to the HiVi B3S. They're more sensitive and don't require the amp to work as hard, due partially to the BSC circuit I needed to use with the B3S to actually hear the bass. The bass is much tighter and more musical; listening to the pirates of the caribbean soundtrack sounds like an orchestra now rather than just a rumble. I actually prefer listening to the Needle/Alpair6 without the sub!
Overall there's just a lot more "air" in the music, it's hard to explain. It's easier to pick individual instruments out and IMO is now comparable to the sound quality of my friend's tube system.
The only downside is the actual physical construction; the basket is entirely plastic, for the price I was expecting metal like the B3S. Also the front sticks out from the speaker in a funny way, so it doesn't look as neat as the B3S.
Acoustically at least, they've made me very very satisfied for now
(And I can recoup the cost by selling the sub!)chylld said:
Most probably not. All of the graphs I've seen suggest that the Needle is technically inferior to other basic designs e.g. the tabaq. For me though, the needle is the design that intrigued me enough to experiment with full-range speakers, and I love my pair too much!
Acoustically at least, they've made me very very satisfied for now
There's something about the Needle.
chylld said:
Technically what you are hearing is increased downward dynamic range. You are hearing more of the little tiny details that flesh out the character of the sound.
[QUOTEThe only downside is the actual physical construction; the basket is entirely plastic, for the price I was expecting metal like the B3S. Also the front sticks out from the speaker in a funny way, so it doesn't look as neat as the B3S.[/QUOTE]
AFAIC the polycarbonate (IIRC) basket is an advance over even a cast farme. Just as stiff. Less resonant. Lower mass. Big open sides. The only downsides are the lack of a big flat sealing surface on the back of the bezel, and the potential to pull the mounting screws thru the basket if you get carried away (neither of which is an inherent flaw from the use of plastic) -- you should not tighten screws near that much for best sonics anyway. Mark is taking feedback and continually pushing forward to make his baskets better.
As with any driver it really should be rebated -- or a fill piece mounted such that the bezel is flush with the basket.
dave
planet10 said:
Thanks for the explanation Dave. It was really hard to put a finger on it, it just sounded better. Last night my fiancé and I were both working on something else when the needles started playing a new song and both of us looked up and went "hmm that's a lot nicer"
planet10 said:
yeah I only tightened the screws until they started to bind
thinking about it they were actually more rigid than the b3s, but that may be because the b3s had a rubber gasket which might have been pushing the middle of the edges out. I wish I started with the alpairs so I could have rebated the drivers during construction, but oh well. Baffle time!
Is mark on these forums? If so, well done on an excellent product mate! Just include screws next time please
I have started construction of the needles and completed one speaker. The enclosure seams are not sealed air tight yet, however this design is quite remarkable. I haven't built the filter's yet but looking forward to see how it improves the sound reproduction. I'm using the W3-871's .750 MDF and will most likely veneer the cabinets in exotic wood. Providing I find veneer large enough.
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I'm really amazed by this design. With the cabinets now sealed it comes to life. The bass response is remarkable relative to the drive size. At the moment I'm adjusting it's frequency with a EQ, til I put together a filter, and powering them through a Sony DA90ESG receiver.
I would like to try this array with the Alpair 6's also. Looking forward to others experiences with that combination.
I would like to try this array with the Alpair 6's also. Looking forward to others experiences with that combination.
I was wondering if any one has implemented a side firing 5'' woofer into this design. Understanding this would most assuredly change the configuration of the cabinet, however, this would increase its versatility. It would require a 2 way crossover network, using the W3-871's or whatever comparable driver to a mid/tweeter, leaving the woofer of course for the low frequency.
In this configuration, wouldn't the amperage acceptance appreciate?
In this configuration, wouldn't the amperage acceptance appreciate?
Including a woofer is an option, yes, however it does defeat the point of this cool speaker ... A single driver with a "long" TL to "pump up the bass". Call me old-fashioned
Apart from that, you'd have to find a speaker that matches the TL. I'd rather build a separate small sub. Or 2 -- Is there a "really cheap but really good for the money" sub equivalent of the needle ?
Crossover placement... Well, I just put it in the cabinet for aesthetical reasons. I have no idea whether crossover placement affects sound. External crossovers that don't vibrate supposedly sound better, however I don;t know whether this is really an issue with this speaker....
It sounds perfect.
For the money...
Apart from that, you'd have to find a speaker that matches the TL. I'd rather build a separate small sub. Or 2
-- Is there a "really cheap but really good for the money" sub equivalent of the needle ?Crossover placement... Well, I just put it in the cabinet for aesthetical reasons. I have no idea whether crossover placement affects sound. External crossovers that don't vibrate supposedly sound better, however I don;t know whether this is really an issue with this speaker....
It sounds perfect.
For the money...
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