Hi Klaus,
always interesting to read your findings! I´m using BG NX 220/6,3 at this position. They took a long, long time to burn in.
Sound was a lot better than the Panasonic FC they replaced. I can´t comment on them being veiled (not in my system) or coloured (what do you compare to?) but I will try your setup (some day after I finished my X´s).
What cap do you use as a coupling cap for the active current source? Same one or a different setup? Any findings on this?
William
always interesting to read your findings! I´m using BG NX 220/6,3 at this position. They took a long, long time to burn in.
Sound was a lot better than the Panasonic FC they replaced. I can´t comment on them being veiled (not in my system) or coloured (what do you compare to?) but I will try your setup (some day after I finished my X´s).
What cap do you use as a coupling cap for the active current source? Same one or a different setup? Any findings on this?
William
wuffwaff said:
Hi William,
in all positions where polarization voltage is given I use "normal" Panasonic FC caps. I like their sound, full, warm, transparent. Since I have compared the sound of a BG NX to a Pana FC in a polarized circuit positions and found that the FC+bypass performs IMHO 95% I will no more investigate in BGs for this. Hopefully the 0,6V voltage on the CCS cap is enough to ensure no negative effects of to low polarization.
I use another trick – I use everywhere in my devices now the same cap with the same sound character. It seems to give advantages, I once changed one cap to another ELNA type I had laying around immediately the over all harmony was disturbed a bit. Funny effects…
I order N type and will compare to the NX.
Regards
Klaus
Hi Macka,
all 220uF FCs are bypassed with small 10-22nF MKP caps - everything else I tested disturbs. Bigger ones, like e.g. the 1000uF FCs I use in the P1.7 PSU do extremly profit from 0,1uF ultra inductive low MKP caps, like M-Cap supreme or Audyn plus etc. Of course also the small 10-22nF in parallel. Other caps, like e.g. WIMA MKP10 0,1uF is to slowly for the FCs, it makes the sound fat and lazy... IMHO the FCs are offering 95% for low cost, in spite of magnatic leads and so on.
Regards
Klaus
all 220uF FCs are bypassed with small 10-22nF MKP caps - everything else I tested disturbs. Bigger ones, like e.g. the 1000uF FCs I use in the P1.7 PSU do extremly profit from 0,1uF ultra inductive low MKP caps, like M-Cap supreme or Audyn plus etc. Of course also the small 10-22nF in parallel. Other caps, like e.g. WIMA MKP10 0,1uF is to slowly for the FCs, it makes the sound fat and lazy... IMHO the FCs are offering 95% for low cost, in spite of magnatic leads and so on.
Regards
Klaus
Klaus,
Without giving the game away, I notice some of the Passlabs products use 220uf Fc Panasonic and smaller bypassed by Panasonic PP Film capacitors...and no doubt for good reason as you appear to have discovered with your own R & D.
What's interesting is that a standard quality component(s) used correctly can produce highly desireable results with resorting to exotics which can have certain downside if not used in just the right way (and expensive).
macka
Without giving the game away, I notice some of the Passlabs products use 220uf Fc Panasonic and smaller bypassed by Panasonic PP Film capacitors...and no doubt for good reason as you appear to have discovered with your own R & D.
What's interesting is that a standard quality component(s) used correctly can produce highly desireable results with resorting to exotics which can have certain downside if not used in just the right way (and expensive).
macka
I think nobody can say clear answer. We may see little differences among many different components, and our mind change easily. One day this feels good and another day that feels good and the next day another feels good. The professionals however seems to know how to compromise the things. In my opinion, the differences could be possibly compromised from professionals' point of view.
I have used oil paper caps, MKP, MKF, ... But, I can't get a clear answer yet, like a painter who never satisfied with the paint he just finished. We might have the same feeling like the painter.
Am I silly?
I have used oil paper caps, MKP, MKF, ... But, I can't get a clear answer yet, like a painter who never satisfied with the paint he just finished. We might have the same feeling like the painter.
Am I silly?
on the Aleph 3,
can we scale up the feedback resistors from 10k and 1k to, say, 100k and 10k, so that a much smaller film cap can be used in the feedback path?
I realise the Ciss of the IRF9610 (or IRFD9210) might come into play, but has anyone tried it out to know whether it's worth the trade-off?
Thanks.
can we scale up the feedback resistors from 10k and 1k to, say, 100k and 10k, so that a much smaller film cap can be used in the feedback path?
I realise the Ciss of the IRF9610 (or IRFD9210) might come into play, but has anyone tried it out to know whether it's worth the trade-off?
Thanks.
BG tests finished...
Hi,
I have finished my BG cap tweaking tests on the Aleph4 mono power block. The result could really be called "outstanding"! I would never have thought that just one coupling cap can limit the performance of this amp so strongly. On the other side it must be stated that each technical specialist should know how massive polarized electrolytic caps have to create distortions - if they are misused in a "bipolare" job. Like the C4 from Aleph4 with 220uF @ some ten milivolts of DC offset and some volts of AC signal is doing
Like written before I wondered over the years why the Aleph amps let miss the last resolution and clearness. Newer Pass X-designs w/o coupling caps have it, now I can say "of course". The answer is very easy: in spite of all applied tweaks this remaining single unpolarized coupling cap is IMHO the most of this limiting effect. But it can be solved with BG, here are my experiences summarized. It took endless hours of A-B-comparison listening tests, but the result reparates for everything!!!! Special thanks to Peter Daniel for creating my motivation for this excessive BG test…
My original setup: 220uF 25V Panasonic FC cap. Musical sound, but somehow dull and a bit shrill. One small 10-22nF foil cap bypass is mandatory.
BG NX type: I found NX 220uF 6,3V + 0,1uF NX + 10nF foil as best NX solution. The sound is very open, clear, dynamic – but it is very present, thin, to "cool", bloodless. Where are the emotions, musicians? Additionally the audible back room and the front room do not really fit to each other. The achieved "reality" of the 3D room impression is limited, especially no "aura" around everything. Just clear information right into the face. Boring and not correct after some days of listening …
BG N-type: here we go, man! It was like a shock, really! This material of dielectric must be perfect – this cap sounds like almost nothing. True and full colorations, perfect forming of bodies, massive dynamics with all fine details, holographic deep and clear stage. Like ML monsters, but with the musicality of Pass designs. Cross check: I bridged this cap with a wire (causing 200-300mV DC offset at my amp, but ok for a short test) and checked "no cap" with some negative effects of the DC offset asymmetry. I never found so small failures caused by a cap like with this N-type.
I found the following cascade as perfect fit: 470uF 16V BG N + 2 x antiparallel 1uF 50V BG N + 2 x antiseriell BG NX 0,1uF 50V. Costs 25€ per block – but the sound improvement let everything forget. The small 1uF caps fill up a bit the relatively rare heights of the big caps. The "half" of 0, NX makes the last 5% of focus and clearness, w/o any negative "NX-sound" effects. Antiseriell as well as antiparallel gives these cancalation benefits. The best "polarization" of the 470uF cap must be tested.
Test it if interested - and before the BG are sold out – but burn them in before test. I jut let my FM tuner noise into them for some days (all BG caps in parallel connected to the cinch out of the tuner).
Another positive effect: "cheap" standard electrolytics Panasonic FC work in my DAC with modified D1 output stage and the Aleph P1.7 and in the Aleph4 as polarized coupling caps. The sound after BG implementation is so perfect that it was shown by the way how almost perfect these parts work. I see no necessity to change something on them. Now I am just lucky.
Tweaky regards
Klaus
Klaus said:
Hi,
I have finished my BG cap tweaking tests on the Aleph4 mono power block. The result could really be called "outstanding"! I would never have thought that just one coupling cap can limit the performance of this amp so strongly. On the other side it must be stated that each technical specialist should know how massive polarized electrolytic caps have to create distortions - if they are misused in a "bipolare" job. Like the C4 from Aleph4 with 220uF @ some ten milivolts of DC offset and some volts of AC signal is doing
Like written before I wondered over the years why the Aleph amps let miss the last resolution and clearness. Newer Pass X-designs w/o coupling caps have it, now I can say "of course". The answer is very easy: in spite of all applied tweaks this remaining single unpolarized coupling cap is IMHO the most of this limiting effect. But it can be solved with BG, here are my experiences summarized. It took endless hours of A-B-comparison listening tests, but the result reparates for everything!!!! Special thanks to Peter Daniel for creating my motivation for this excessive BG test…
My original setup: 220uF 25V Panasonic FC cap. Musical sound, but somehow dull and a bit shrill. One small 10-22nF foil cap bypass is mandatory.
BG NX type: I found NX 220uF 6,3V + 0,1uF NX + 10nF foil as best NX solution. The sound is very open, clear, dynamic – but it is very present, thin, to "cool", bloodless. Where are the emotions, musicians? Additionally the audible back room and the front room do not really fit to each other. The achieved "reality" of the 3D room impression is limited, especially no "aura" around everything. Just clear information right into the face. Boring and not correct after some days of listening …
BG N-type: here we go, man! It was like a shock, really! This material of dielectric must be perfect – this cap sounds like almost nothing. True and full colorations, perfect forming of bodies, massive dynamics with all fine details, holographic deep and clear stage. Like ML monsters, but with the musicality of Pass designs. Cross check: I bridged this cap with a wire (causing 200-300mV DC offset at my amp, but ok for a short test) and checked "no cap" with some negative effects of the DC offset asymmetry. I never found so small failures caused by a cap like with this N-type.
I found the following cascade as perfect fit: 470uF 16V BG N + 2 x antiparallel 1uF 50V BG N + 2 x antiseriell BG NX 0,1uF 50V. Costs 25€ per block – but the sound improvement let everything forget. The small 1uF caps fill up a bit the relatively rare heights of the big caps. The "half" of 0, NX makes the last 5% of focus and clearness, w/o any negative "NX-sound" effects. Antiseriell as well as antiparallel gives these cancalation benefits. The best "polarization" of the 470uF cap must be tested.
Test it if interested - and before the BG are sold out – but burn them in before test. I jut let my FM tuner noise into them for some days (all BG caps in parallel connected to the cinch out of the tuner).
Another positive effect: "cheap" standard electrolytics Panasonic FC work in my DAC with modified D1 output stage and the Aleph P1.7 and in the Aleph4 as polarized coupling caps. The sound after BG implementation is so perfect that it was shown by the way how almost perfect these parts work. I see no necessity to change something on them. Now I am just lucky.
Tweaky regards
Klaus
Hi Klaus,
do you think the cause for the big improvent is the fact, that the cap sees no significant DC voltage to speak off?
At the moment I´m using 6,3V / 220uF NX in my Aleph 5 (these improved a lot on the 220uF Panasonic FC used before (both without bypass).
At the moment I building an output stage for my DAC with an X-Bosoz and have used your favorite combination of 63V Panasonic FC plus 10nF ERO 1837 at the output (biased with around 20V DC) without leaving much room for further (bigger) caps.
After reading your mail I suppose this was the right thing to do?
Could you plaese explain anti-parallel and anti-seriell?
William
do you think the cause for the big improvent is the fact, that the cap sees no significant DC voltage to speak off?
At the moment I´m using 6,3V / 220uF NX in my Aleph 5 (these improved a lot on the 220uF Panasonic FC used before (both without bypass).
At the moment I building an output stage for my DAC with an X-Bosoz and have used your favorite combination of 63V Panasonic FC plus 10nF ERO 1837 at the output (biased with around 20V DC) without leaving much room for further (bigger) caps.
After reading your mail I suppose this was the right thing to do?
Could you plaese explain anti-parallel and anti-seriell?
William
value of benefit
"Understood. By the way, what is the value of benefit/cost ratio comparing with cheaper cap?"
This are my 12 cents: now, with the "outstanding" cap for 25Euros = 21$ and all other tweaks, I hear a transparency I know from benchmarking other highest end hifi sets, like a Mark Levison set I heard frequently. With the old, cheap cap there was all the time a lake of resolution and a somewhat soft sound – in spite of all other benefits of the Aleph. Also voices sometimes had small noticeable disturbances – now they are almost gone. These described benefits are valid for a "high level setup". If one part of the hifi set is not "high level" it might be possible that the audible value of this benefit shrinks to almost zero.
On the other side: what are 25Euros compared to the price of a not-DIY high end hifi device bought at the dealer around the corner? My two Aleph4 mono blocks "fully tweaked" cost less than 1000Euro. They sound better than these quoted 10kEuro monsters from ML – so the over all ratio is factor 10… For the saved 9kEuro I do not mind to buy caps for 50Euros. Assuming, that my work is for free of course.
From DIY point of view: my Aleph got with tweaking progress just some expensive parts, the sound improvements are really "dramatically". The budget of additional cost for tweaking parts is somewhere between 20-25%. So I could have saved maybe 200Euro and would have got no "higher end" sound. I see just a short term benefit… My personal aim was "just the best" – but no voodoo parts. BG is expensive, but no voodoo. Now I know.
Regards
Klaus
"Understood. By the way, what is the value of benefit/cost ratio comparing with cheaper cap?"
This are my 12 cents: now, with the "outstanding" cap for 25Euros = 21$ and all other tweaks, I hear a transparency I know from benchmarking other highest end hifi sets, like a Mark Levison set I heard frequently. With the old, cheap cap there was all the time a lake of resolution and a somewhat soft sound – in spite of all other benefits of the Aleph. Also voices sometimes had small noticeable disturbances – now they are almost gone. These described benefits are valid for a "high level setup". If one part of the hifi set is not "high level" it might be possible that the audible value of this benefit shrinks to almost zero.
On the other side: what are 25Euros compared to the price of a not-DIY high end hifi device bought at the dealer around the corner? My two Aleph4 mono blocks "fully tweaked" cost less than 1000Euro. They sound better than these quoted 10kEuro monsters from ML – so the over all ratio is factor 10… For the saved 9kEuro I do not mind to buy caps for 50Euros. Assuming, that my work is for free of course.
From DIY point of view: my Aleph got with tweaking progress just some expensive parts, the sound improvements are really "dramatically". The budget of additional cost for tweaking parts is somewhere between 20-25%. So I could have saved maybe 200Euro and would have got no "higher end" sound. I see just a short term benefit… My personal aim was "just the best" – but no voodoo parts. BG is expensive, but no voodoo. Now I know.
Regards
Klaus
wuffwaff said:
Hi William,
I found measurements showing the unsymmetrical and at low voltages relatively high distortions of electrolytic caps depending on the polarity. So an elco used without polarizing DC must create unsymmetrical, stromg distortions. To make an electrolytic work fine means to set him by DC to a level that by AC signal he stays off far enough from the 0V level. At D1 and P1.7 … stages this is done – here the Pana FC works fine. Just this special cap in the aleph amp feedback branch sees no defined DC voltage, just the output DC offset. This requires a bipolare type to work fine.
To me the sound performance of the Pans FC is enough. It is good not to know how much a BG N would do better…
Anti-parallel means to lay the two caps parallel. The first in one and the second in the other polarization direction.
Anti-seriell means to lay both caps in line. The first in one and the second in the other polarization direction.
Regards
Klaus
Actually BGs, when comparing to film caps prices and benefit/cost ratio, are very cheap 
I'm using 4.7u BG N for coupling in my DAC and for $3 I wouldn't buy anything comparable.
As electrolytics, BGs may seem expensive, but the other electrilytics don't come that close in performance comparing to good film caps.
So effectively, BGs are very cheap alternative
I'm mostly using N type caps, as they are more refined than other BG types.
I'm using 4.7u BG N for coupling in my DAC and for $3 I wouldn't buy anything comparable.
As electrolytics, BGs may seem expensive, but the other electrilytics don't come that close in performance comparing to good film caps.
So effectively, BGs are very cheap alternative
I'm mostly using N type caps, as they are more refined than other BG types.
stappvargen said:
Hi Niclas,
There should by a dealer in Denmark?! If not contact Andreas Sellenthin http://www.audiotuning.de/2-4-nnx.html . He is a very nice guy an still has this drug on store. I am sure he has no problem also to deliver to Denmark. Inquire and transfer him the money via international transfer upfront and he would send it by small parcel.
Regards
Klaus
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