I agree Andy.
Skill and ability come into play here though. Most DIY speaker builders are doing the best they can to put together a reasonably decent looking rectangular box. I applaud every effort, if done to the builders best ability.
Some ignore aesthetics completely and only concentrate on optimizing sound quality. When you sit back, close your eyes and listen to the music, your speakers (if they are good) will disappear.
I have been living with a pair of experimental speakers for the past two months which are none to attractive. My old main speakers are getting a new past job (matte black with silver spikes) and this current project is still not done. They are small, open back 2 ways made from chipboard. They are sitting on plastic buckets (quick speaker stands).
I've even become accustomed to the way they sound (not that bad).
Skill and ability come into play here though. Most DIY speaker builders are doing the best they can to put together a reasonably decent looking rectangular box. I applaud every effort, if done to the builders best ability.
Some ignore aesthetics completely and only concentrate on optimizing sound quality. When you sit back, close your eyes and listen to the music, your speakers (if they are good) will disappear.
I have been living with a pair of experimental speakers for the past two months which are none to attractive. My old main speakers are getting a new past job (matte black with silver spikes) and this current project is still not done. They are small, open back 2 ways made from chipboard. They are sitting on plastic buckets (quick speaker stands).
I've even become accustomed to the way they sound (not that bad).
The "Manhattans" are STILL raw mdf... I just can't figure out what to do with them !!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/ARGOS/pics/4wayprogress.jpg (they have drivers in them now, though)
And my next speakers will probably be a commission job, and will be rectangular.. after a fashion..... but think I can get away with it, so long as not too many people know!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/ARGOS/pics/4wayprogress.jpg (they have drivers in them now, though)
And my next speakers will probably be a commission job, and will be rectangular.. after a fashion..... but think I can get away with it, so long as not too many people know!
Andy Graddon said:
If I could be so bold as to offer a suggestion? How about "a city skyline at night" with white lit "windows" against a midnight blue background. Fitting for speakers named Manhattan - could even have the distinctive Chrysler building in it.
You have the drivers in, how does it sound? Classic choice for a TL, the B139.
My first truly well made/finished speakers are TLs (referred to in this thread). They use the Vifa PL18WO09 and a scanspeak tweeter. They were a handful to build, as they have both a curved front and curved sides. Also a sloped top to add complexity. Internal line length is ~90 inches but it's narrow.
Sound is very good, well defined bass.
Picture from 3 years ago taken shortly after painting:
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Re: How do you compensate for the high efficiency of the line array with a single woofer? Amplifier power?
I use two 12 inch polyprop Gold Sound , 15 mm Xmax woofers. Their efficiency is 92 db. They are DVC rated at 250 watts RMS, and the power amp for them is rated at 350 watts/ch.
They are in a 7 x 12 x 16 foot room. Quite honestly, I have to keep the bass woofer turned back or they will over-whelm the line array.
Currently their ported box is too small so they only go down to about 30hz +/- 3 db. The room reinforcement is substantial.
So.....I'm not sure what you mean. I don't have any lack of bass. Even on Bela Fleck they are fine.
Zarathu
I use two 12 inch polyprop Gold Sound , 15 mm Xmax woofers. Their efficiency is 92 db. They are DVC rated at 250 watts RMS, and the power amp for them is rated at 350 watts/ch.
They are in a 7 x 12 x 16 foot room. Quite honestly, I have to keep the bass woofer turned back or they will over-whelm the line array.
Currently their ported box is too small so they only go down to about 30hz +/- 3 db. The room reinforcement is substantial.
So.....I'm not sure what you mean. I don't have any lack of bass. Even on Bela Fleck they are fine.
Zarathu
MJL21193 said:
I abandoned this kind of speaker a while ago, and you are right, likely nothing like i would come up with, so my comments aren't all that useful. I like the sealed bass, and that it will be triamped (althou i'm not a big LR fan). I had a set of similar Max drivers thru here and they seemed nice. Domes of almost any ilk i'm not enamoured of -- and your tweeter XO is lower than i'd go (i like to keep any tweeter XO >5k)
But other than all those differences in approach, i still find them interesting, and if i ever get to the big TO, i'd like to hear them (i think i was last there in 1979)
dave
Zarathu said:
A Bela Fleck tune has bass?
The overall efficiency of your array must be very high, therefore to match the spl output, the woofer has to be driven at a high level.
If you are driving your woofers with 350 watts each, how much power do you have for the arrays?
BTW, 350 watts is a lot of power; in the size room you detailed it would qualify for efficiency compensation.
planet10 said:
Linkwitz-Riley might be the best alignment for an active crossover.
I'm banking on these Max drivers for the most important frequency range. I hope they don't disappoint.
I found these at Goodwill (where I go to look for interesting electronic things that I can take apart and salvage things from - mostly transformers). They were in speakers that originally had different drivers in it. The woofers were 10" cerwin Vega car subs, the mids I'm using here and the tweeters were also Max Fidelity - 1" metal domes. Whoever stuck the new drivers in, didn't do a good job. Looking as shabby as they did, the sale price was $30.00 as is. A bargain.
Anytime you're around in the next few decades, drop by and have a listen. Still, they will be sourced through the Yamaha (as that has the SPDIF/TOSLINK decoder - computer is where the music is), so don't be too tough on them.
MJL21193 said:
Remember that the system is tri-amped. The Woofers have 350 each, but the power amp has a volume control. The mid-ranges have 175 watts per/ch and the tweeter portion of the array has 60 watts/ch. The tweeters also have a separate volume control on their power amp. The mid range amp runs full power, and I adjust the power on the other to to taste. I keep the op amps on the crossover at mid power level and do the adjusting on the power amps since they are much better quality than the Rane analog crossover.
The Efficiency of the mid ranges is 96 db and the tweeters efficiency is 105 db.
So the woofer amp is turned up, and the tweeter amp is turned down. I have the equipment to measure the system, but I never needed to do so, since it was so obvious how it should fit. After the initial run I only change the bass when I'm using Little Feat or some rock, or when i switch to Baroque.
Zarathu
Disaster strikes.
While gluing on a back panel, the speaker shifted on the (apparently inadequate) support, and fell on the concrete floor.
After I finish stomping around slapping myself on the head, calling myself stupid and saying every foul word I know, I assess the damage.
All in all, it's not that bad. Obviously any damage to the baffle means a re-paint. The paint is scuffed near the bottom and the top corner is crushed. I was lucky as it fell almost straight down onto its face. Closer examination reveals no other damage, in particular I thought the seam between layers on the baffle might have opened up. Not so.
What can I say? Live and learn. You can never be too careful.
While gluing on a back panel, the speaker shifted on the (apparently inadequate) support, and fell on the concrete floor.
After I finish stomping around slapping myself on the head, calling myself stupid and saying every foul word I know, I assess the damage.
All in all, it's not that bad. Obviously any damage to the baffle means a re-paint. The paint is scuffed near the bottom and the top corner is crushed. I was lucky as it fell almost straight down onto its face. Closer examination reveals no other damage, in particular I thought the seam between layers on the baffle might have opened up. Not so.
What can I say? Live and learn. You can never be too careful.
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Bela Fleck aside, repairs to the fractured corner happen. A quick sanding, then a coat of clear urethane (spray can) for primer. Let that dry for a couple hours then use automotive spot putty to fill the cracks and dent.
Spot putty is good for this kind of repair where it doesn't have to be thick. It dries fast and is easy to sand. When primed, it absorbs the primer and becomes harder.
Pic shows finished repair before priming. I then gave it a coat of black spray paint to make it look presentable, since I probably won't do the final re-paint for a while.
Spot putty is good for this kind of repair where it doesn't have to be thick. It dries fast and is easy to sand. When primed, it absorbs the primer and becomes harder.
Pic shows finished repair before priming. I then gave it a coat of black spray paint to make it look presentable, since I probably won't do the final re-paint for a while.
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Cloth Ears said:
There is a thread that I've been contributing to where the question of this glues strength came up. This little "test" that I did here should dispel any doubts.
The problem with repainting is that with the thickness of the final paint layer - I'm running out of room in the driver recesses. I lack the painting skill to just paint the affected area and feather it out.
I'm thinking that I'm going to be forced to carefully route out the recesses again, to make enough room for the new paint.
Also I am eager to try a new waterbased urethane paint. This could be my opportunity to use it.
I'm lucky that the damage wasn't worse. With the addition of the outside layer of particleboard, they are quite heavy. It's a setback but not a major one.
MJL21193 said:
Quick tip for you John. Get a sharp stanley knife and carefully run it around the inside the recess. It works best if you hold the blade at an angle and make many light passes shaving the paint off, once that's done go back and tidy up sand paper if need be. I've stripped a few paint jobs in the last couple of months and it works everytime.
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