Computer based Hifi

[Key]

About the same except FLAC can do 176.4kHz and 192kHz. Flac maxes out at 6 channels as well. And also can only do 24-bit as it's highest bitdepth.

Wavpack can do 32-bit, 8 channels, and hi res so it's better than both of them in terms of compatibility,

 

[Idiocratease]

My Struggle with HiFi PC's

I, like many other people on this thread, have been battling away to use a PC as my source.

The biggest issue is noise, and I now have a totally silent PC. I put some info on the web on my latest build, there are a bunch of videos:-

YouTube - idiocratease's Channel

Basically my system is:-

PC
HFX Case, Borg Heat system, Super micro C2SEA m' board, Core 2 Quad CPU, Marian Marc 2 sound card (very good, and I have tested quite a few!), XP Pro, Patriot SSD for the OS, and 1TB WD10EVCS (specialized AV drive) for media.

Software

XP Pro

I use windows media player, which is just fine, especially with a large library of files

I try to keep the software to a minimum on the media PC, use Acronis for back ups, Any-DVD for copy protection issues.

I've played around with analogue simulation on the PC using OzoneMP, which is quite a nice plug-in, but is reduces the dynamic range, despite being 64 bit internal processing. I think it uses the windows kernal mixer, which is a bad thing.... The marian marc 2 soundcard assuming you are not forcing it to resample the audio stream completely avoids the kmixer..


DAC: Chord QDB76 (this DAC eliminates jitter from the source, by buffering and re-clocking)

Optional Tube Audio processing:- Avalon VT-474ST

Amp: Chord CPM2600

Speakers: B&W 805S

Cables: QED Signature Digital, HGA 99.99% pure silver analogue interconnects, Kimber 8TC speaker cables.

I can control this from a Viewsonic smart monitor via my wireless network, and also connect to my laptop via remote desktop sharing. And also from the mini keyboard, mouse and monitor attached to the system.

The sound is excellent, no extraneous noise from fans, HDD's ect. The

I've managed to rip DVD-A's in full resolution to the hard drive, but there are not many titles. I've also collected a few DVD-V soundtracks from concerts at 48KH, 24 bit etc, but most of the stuff I listen to is WMA lossless, or any old mp3 which I have in my collection of friends mp3 collections... If I like stuff I've got on mp3, I typically buy the CD..

Well, hope this is of interest to some people.

Cheers,

 

[sandyK]

Computer based Hi Fi

Idiocratease

If you have a fairly fast USB pen, try ripping your best sounding DVD-A directly to the USB pen, and playing directly from there.
I am getting excellent results when using a 32GB Corsair Voyager GT USB 2.0 in this fashion. It usually takes me around 1 minute to rip each 24/96 track, whereas with a PQI USB pen it took 2 hours to write a single track !
SandyK

 

[lazycatken]

DAC: Chord QDB76 (this DAC eliminates jitter from the source, by buffering and re-clocking)

Does QDB76 indeed eliminate jitter?
Did you try to feed it with signal from poor CD player or noisy PC?

 

[Studio Au]

My plan, which i have been toying with for ages, DIY naim HDX

Bild a Mac Mini Hackintosh (perhaps nVidea ION based) or just buy a new dual core Mini.

Cheap SSD for system files.

Get a good cheap ebay DAC with optical for mini or usb input.

Perhaps a small screen, 7" touchscreen could be good, (or set up screen sharing from another computer)

Strip off the case, and re-case with aluminum rectangle extrusion, and some wooden ends.

Perhaps have a second length of extrusion, to house hard drives, 5x1TB software raid for precious data.

Set up the mini to auto rip CD's lossless in itunes and eject. Rip DVD's with Handbrake, and Plex for HTPC if needed.

iPhone for remote. AirMousePro mouse and keyboard input. Apple's remote for music.

 

[juxta]

I use an Asus dual core
330gb hd on board
500gb external for music(I collect electronic music, got about 70 days worth)
M-audio delta sound card(bit old but works for me)

Windows 7 os
Cubase sx3 for writing music
Traktor Pro for playing or mixing
Windows media player or vlc for playlists when I'm not at the computer..

Good thing about the M-audio delta is I have full size jacks out which I run to an oldish Sony digital processing centre then to Sony amp,
speakers are old but good Onkyo's 12" bass driver an 2" mid an 1" dome tweeters. Not using the digital ins on the processor yet as it works for the moment..

Works well for writing an listening....

I still use cd's for gigs but will soon head to full digital dj gear when the initial rush settles

 

[Idiocratease]

Does QDB76 indeed eliminate jitter?
Did you try to feed it with signal from poor CD player or noisy PC?

Hi lazycatken , That's is an interesting question. If you read the blurb about the QDB76 the buffer is supposed to eliminate clock jitter.

Additionally I read that you'ld be better off using optical cables in spite of the fact that these have more jitter (2 interesting links)

Rob Watts on the DAC64 [Archive] - ZeroGain Forum
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/37122-optical-cable-jitter-measurements.html

Having read this info, I happy connected up an optical cable expecting to be more than happy.... but I was not impressed with the sound compared to the coaxial... I don't consider myself to be an ultra-teckie person, but I am sure of what I hear. So what does it mean. Well there must be some data corruption getting through with the optical cable.... Gotta be, otherwise it would sound the same.

I also was not 100% sure that the USB link sounded as good; I suspect that this might be to do with windows drivers/routing inside the PC.
>>>I'm going to wildly speculate now, and I'd appreciate any input from more knowledgeable people:- There is also a possibility that the USB driver data routing goes via the kmixer when using the USB -> DAC route. And I know for a fact that using the kmixer reduces sound quality , .. I've not tested USB much, but my definite impression is that the USB route is not as good as the Marain Marc 2 --> QED Coax --> route.

On the buffer, there is a very slight audible improvement with the buffer engaged cf using the SPDIF/clock from the soundcard, but to answer your question, the finding I have made imply that the buffering not able to eliminate all spurious effects.

It is still an excellent DAC non the less.

 

[Idiocratease]

Idiocratease

If you have a fairly fast USB pen, try ripping your best sounding DVD-A directly to the USB pen, and playing directly from there.
I am getting excellent results when using a 32GB Corsair Voyager GT USB 2.0 in this fashion. It usually takes me around 1 minute to rip each 24/96 track, whereas with a PQI USB pen it took 2 hours to write a single track !
SandyK

Hi SandyK, I don't quite understand what advantage there is to ripping to a solid state device vs. the hard drive, except maybe the rip speed you mention, but this is a 'one time thing'...

I suppose you are as disappointed about the lack of titles on DVD-A... After working out how to rip, this is a big disappointment. Also there are some DVD-A which don't have stereo, but only 6.1. If find that mixdown to stereo just does not work.... So for me it's been a bit of a theoretical exercise.

...I don't suppose you've figured out how to rip SACD's ? I'd be really interested to know.

Cheers,

 

[lazycatken]

I happy connected up an optical cable expecting to be more than happy.... but I was not impressed with the sound compared to the coaxial... I don't consider myself to be an ultra-teckie person, but I am sure of what I hear. So what does it mean. Well there must be some data corruption getting through with the optical cable.... Gotta be, otherwise it would sound the same.

What's difference between the sound of using optical vs coaxial?
Is it similar with this?
ZeroGain Forum - View Single Post - Rob Watts on the DAC64
In this post, Michaelab mentioned what he heard.

 

[Idiocratease]

Hi Lazycatken,

QDB76 DAC - Optical vs. Coaxial (SPDIF).

I'm not sure I could find quite as much language to describe what I heard with the optical vs. coax cable as in the link you provided . But I would say lack of depth in the mid to upper frequencies was noticeable. I listened to bit of KD Lang's Ingenue album, and the depth and articulation of her voice seemed to suffer a little. Not a huge amount, but enough for me to be sure there was a difference... And in terms of the placebo, having read the Rob Watts on the DAC64 [Archive] - ZeroGain Forum article, I was fairly convinced from the technical arguments that isolating the electrical path would benefit.

So my finding was at variance to my expectation (desire?), do I don't think there is any chance that it's the (very real) placebo effect.

I suppose (but don't know), if the source clock jitter is eliminated, the only other think I can imagine is that (maybe) reflections in the cable are causing some of the 0 to be read as 1, maybe some of the 1's read as 0's (cancellation). Seems unbelievable to be honest, but I can't think of any other explanation, and I think the measurement of high jitter in optical cables must result from refection, creating movement in the edges of the parent signal, and if it can make the timing 'appear to move' then in principal I suppose it could give an actual spurious data point.

That's as much as I can tell you, and most of it's speculation (apart for the difference of sound)

 

[lazycatken]

Hi Lazycatken,
But I would say lack of depth in the mid to upper frequencies was noticeable. I listened to bit of KD Lang's Ingenue album, and the depth and articulation of her voice seemed to suffer a little. Not a huge amount, but enough for me to be sure there was a difference...

Thanks, this information is good enough for me...

In the post, ZeroGain Forum - View Single Post - Rob Watts on the DAC64, Michaelab mentioned coaxial cable was
Just a touch less detail though, things ever so slightly less well defined as with the TOSlink
Supposedly, higher jitter(ie, Toslink) could result in less detail/definition, but the result was not!

And he mentioned Toslink was
everything sounds terribly "thin"
coaxial was
Lots more drive and punch in the bass aswell and none of that horrid treble harshness.
I got similar experience, using oversampling, from 44.1KHz to 88.2KHz(you know oversampling results in less jitter component), I heard much "thin" sound and less bass/punch. But I would say, it's much close to the real recording space/room!
Less bass/punch may be due to more clear and defined. So as "thin" & treble.
Perhaps, Michaelab's system tended to be too much treble... And he may prefer sound with much bass...

Per the difference you heard, is it possible due to electrical noise carried by coaxial cable?
You know, sometimes, better doesn't mean more precise. Replace a specific component of a system with an ideal one, may result in a not-ideal system, depends on other components of the system.

 

[ChrisA]

Supposedly, higher jitter(ie, Toslink) could result in less detail/definition, but the result was not!

I don't think jitter could be an issue with S/PDIF. The data are packetized and needs to be re-clocked at the receiving end. S/PDIF is sent in blocks, each block has some control words at the front of the block that define what follows. It is not un-like the way CD-ROM data must be buffered before being clocked into a DAC.

Have we ruled out any bias with the listener? Did he know which cables were in use while listening?

 

[Idiocratease]

T
Per the difference you heard, is it possible due to electrical noise carried by coaxial cable?
You know, sometimes, better doesn't mean more precise

I got similar experience, using oversampling, from 44.1KHz to 88.2KHz(you know oversampling results in less jitter component), I heard much "thin" sound and less bass/punch. But I would say, it's much close to the real recording space/room!
Less bass/punch may be due to more clear and defined. So as "thin" & treble.
Perhaps, Michaelab's system tended to be too much treble... And he may prefer sound with much bass...

I certainly take your point about more precise (=transparent) not necessarily being better... I have for many years used an Audio Note DAC 2.1 Signature, which I think is not at all hi-spec, but does sound wonderful. I am prepared to concede this this could be what's going on, but judgement/feel tells me that it's not the issue.

When you mentioned upsampling, I'm interested to know what platform you upsampled on. Was this a PC, or some other device ?

 

[Idiocratease]

I don't think jitter could be an issue with S/PDIF. The data are packetized and needs to be re-clocked at the receiving end. S/PDIF is sent in blocks, each block has some control words at the front of the block that define what follows. It is not un-like the way CD-ROM data must be buffered before being clocked into a DAC.

Have we ruled out any bias with the listener? Did he know which cables were in use while listening?

I think that my description and my mention of the placebo effect should have addressed listener bias questions. To be honest, I think it's a pretty cheap shot, when people are trying to discuss interesting observation.

If you had read my original post, you would have seen the Coax cable specified, and the optical was some inexpensive monster item.

 

[sandyK]

Solid state vs. HDD

Ideocratease
Sorry for delay. I didn't get an update email for this thread.
Have a look at the attached link. In the U.S.A. a while back, the Editor of Computer Audiophile, organised a Symposium which included DAC designers, software experts, Recording engineers, Chesky etc.
Check out especially,the reply "Hi Paul, I definitely hear ..." from Chris Connaker, the Editor of C.A.

SandyK

Does SSD sound better than Hard Disk? | Computer Audiophile

 

[phofman]

I don't think jitter could be an issue with S/PDIF. The data are packetized and needs to be re-clocked at the receiving end. S/PDIF is sent in blocks, each block has some control words at the front of the block that define what follows. It is not un-like the way CD-ROM data must be buffered before being clocked into a DAC.

SPDIF is carrying the master clock, which is recovered via synchronous PLL, rather sensitive to the incoming jitter. It is the opposite of CD-ROM/HDD data processing which involves feedback control of the reading speed (unfortunately SPDIF offers no feedback).

Unless asynchronous reclocking is used which is a completely different story.

 

[phofman]

Does SSD sound better than Hard Disk? | Computer Audiophile

Perfectly possible since SSD puts way less noise on power supply lines. Certainly not a function of timing unless it affects the level of noise in the case - the sound card has its clock and the rest is slaved to it via software/interrupts.

 

[lazycatken]

IWhen you mentioned upsampling, I'm interested to know what platform you upsampled on. Was this a PC, or some other device ?

My source is MacBook Pro. DAC is an AKM AK4380 evaluation board, powered by a car battery. Fiber cable in between Mac & DAC.
Mac optical output can be set as 44.1/48/88.2/96KHz.
I tried to play music by iTune. 88.2 is better than 44.1.
And set output as 88.2. Then played music by Audacity 1.3.9. Made comparison between fast & high-quality sinc sampling rate conversion setting. High-quality sinc was indeed better.

The improvement is thoroughly, clear/transparent/precise/detail/emotional...
Although, not much, but audible. Even a non-audiophile can easily recognize the improvement.
Once you heard 88.2, you'll never back to 44.1.

Perhaps, CS8414, the S/PDIF receiver, can't generate good enough clock... Thus, I'm thinking about building a buffer board... It might be based on FPGA or micro-controller.

I also tried this on an Accuphase DP-500 CD player, which can work as a DAC. Got the same result. You know this player is not cheap...

 

[ChrisA]

I think that my description and my mention of the placebo effect should have addressed listener bias questions. To be honest, I think it's a pretty cheap shot, when people are trying to discuss interesting observation.

If you had read my original post, you would have seen the Coax cable specified, and the optical was some inexpensive monster item.

Not a cheap shot. It was asked as a question because few listeners take the time to collect statistically valid sample sizes.

But I'm certain you can eliminate the possibility of jitter causing the problem. The S/PDIF data protocol introduces HUGE jitter. For example the left and right (and any other) channels are sent alternately.

If there is a different then it must be something else. Likely, almost certainly the same DAC is used for the RCA and optical jacks. I would expect only one set of buffer memory and clock too.

S/PDIF is self clocking and the data is the same even if the bit rate doubles. the speed of the its can vary over a huge range with no effect.

Hard to think what could case the effect. Possible the RCA cable could have some kind of ground loop effect. The optical cable would not be conductive.

The described effect is "thinness" and not "drop-outs" or "static" so It's not a failure of a digital link but analog effects. Possably the RCA or optical jacks load the power supply differently. Could the device sense which cable is in place and switch off the other jack? The receivers on the jacks the DAC chip might share a power supply. I'd be inclided to beleive their is a small design problem (or shortcut) with the equipment.

If the problem is really in the data transition then you'd have to have a theory that could explain it. When the data are packeted and channel multiplexed it is hard to think it hard to explain how data errors can cause the observed effect

 

[phofman]

The S/PDIF data protocol introduces HUGE jitter. For example the left and right (and any other) channels are sent alternately.

I2S multiplexes the channels too. Multiplexing does not cause jitter.

Likely, almost certainly the same DAC is used for the RCA and optical jacks. I would expect only one set of buffer memory and clock too.

SPDIF receiver does not use a stable clock and buffer, but the clock is recovered from the incoming SPDIF stream via PLL.

Possible the RCA cable could have some kind of ground loop effect. The optical cable would not be conductive.

Most decent sound cards use an isolation transformer for SPDIF coax output. I would assume the same holds for CD players.