I'm finding it hard to reconsile that crossover diagram to the spl curve beside it.... If I'm reading it properly the spl trace is showing a 12db / octave slope with crossover at 2K but the crossover looks like it is 2nd order electrical. with the natural rolloff of the tweeter I would expect a 4th order accoustic rolloff with a second order electrical filter.
Is that an actual measurement or simmed?
Tony.
Is that an actual measurement or simmed?
Tony.
Pages 2 & 3 for the SF/Vifa speaker project
Also a similar design here:
The Madisound Speaker Store
Click Crossover Schematics/Graphs
Also a similar design here:
The Madisound Speaker Store
Click Crossover Schematics/Graphs
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These are fast becoming my favorite speakers. I've been switching around and these seem to have more range and detail; simply can hear more from low to - high.
The imaging is nice, maybe because the tweeter is mounted up high/isolated, I don't really know but something is working right
Wife said they are ugly, but really not fished either; there is room to flip the tweeter onto the front panel - could even add a bit top and bottom to give it more height, but not going to.
Neat!!! Having a blast, they sound like really expensive HiFi speakers
ordered more parts, parts, parts..........
The imaging is nice, maybe because the tweeter is mounted up high/isolated, I don't really know but something is working right
Wife said they are ugly, but really not fished either; there is room to flip the tweeter onto the front panel - could even add a bit top and bottom to give it more height, but not going to.
Neat!!! Having a blast, they sound like really expensive HiFi speakers
ordered more parts, parts, parts..........
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So here is the scoop - Penguin vs. MS Vifa woofer/ Morel (right).
The MS Vifa/Morel is in box twice as big as the Penguin, the pint size Penguin will run circles around the larger boxes. There are way more natural sounds; the old black stain boxes need work; good bass, but that's about it.
I was surprised how little the black ones image; the boxes are 1" mdf with foam ...I'll never do that again
Plywood, felt, light wool and boxes with small fronts
The MS Vifa/Morel is in box twice as big as the Penguin, the pint size Penguin will run circles around the larger boxes. There are way more natural sounds; the old black stain boxes need work; good bass, but that's about it.
I was surprised how little the black ones image; the boxes are 1" mdf with foam ...I'll never do that again
Plywood, felt, light wool and boxes with small fronts
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Anyone feel that these should not be used in this xo/speaker project?
Jantzen 1.5mH 14 AWG C-Coil Toroidal Inductor 255-804
Jantzen 1.5mH 14 AWG C-Coil Toroidal Inductor 255-804
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Those are really expensive, and really only justified on a higher-$ driver project. Also of note- I have a set of 4.7mH of those, and they measured 2.7 and 2.9mH. The 1.5mH I have are fine.
Later,
Wolf
Well the foil coil was another upgrade, it was only $3 more than the wire wound, same awg. (wish I realized that a while back).
Gesh what great bass, sounds like there a sub-woofer is in the room.
Some folks are coming over today to check them out, we'll see how that goes. I have 8, I wouldn't mind selling a pair to buy/grade more parts.
The coil is a bit clunky - thinking I may bury that inside the box and run extra "ground" wire out to a smaller xo board to the back of the speaker.
Gesh what great bass, sounds like there a sub-woofer is in the room.
Some folks are coming over today to check them out, we'll see how that goes. I have 8, I wouldn't mind selling a pair to buy/grade more parts.
The coil is a bit clunky - thinking I may bury that inside the box and run extra "ground" wire out to a smaller xo board to the back of the speaker.
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It's great re-discovering your music collection isn't it I remember when I first built my mosfet amp. I still had really ordinary speakers back then, but the difference to my first amp (cobbled together on matrix board with bd139 and bd140 transistors as the outputs) was quite suprising. I can remember listening to Pink Floyd the final cut and noticing the sound of pool balls being hit in the background, I'd never heard that before!
Tony.
I remember when I first built my mosfet amp. I still had really ordinary speakers back then, but the difference to my first amp (cobbled together on matrix board with bd139 and bd140 transistors as the outputs) was quite suprising. I can remember listening to Pink Floyd the final cut and noticing the sound of pool balls being hit in the background, I'd never heard that before! Tony.
Take it into context that we are talking $35 tweeter and woofer here. A lot of speakers in this range are just plain bad. These may just be the winners at the price point. I have not found a cheaper tweeter that I can stand at all, let alone hold it's own and the SF is a similar bargain. Even at this price, the quality of the crossover components is evident, not wasted. Something to think about. Full disclosure, I just don't like the XT25 much, feeling $20 more for a Seas is well worth it IMHO. A better woofer is a bigger jump. These are a well matched pair and when properly executed will make a very good showing of themselves.
I can verify these are getting pretty darn good. We were listening with no sub. Their f3 is in the 60 or so range so his description of real base is valid. Not the sub part, but real. The cabinets are a bit oversize, but instead of a peaky roll-off as you expect in a too-big ported box, they sound a bit more like a sealed box rolling of easy to blend with the room. Doug's port design here needs further investigation to see what it is doing. The asymmetry bothers me in concept, but it seems to work.
Joni Mitchel (Morgantown) did pretty well being properly balanced. Joan Baez (Diamonds and Rust) was just a tad off. Darn close. Their voices are just plain hard to get right. Harry James will show you why you may want to spend twice as much for a tweeter. Crank them high enough for Gliere (The Red Poppy) and you see where paying 5 times as much for Scan Speak comes into its own. Imaging was hampered by the too close bright wall. It was focused, but constrained within the speaker width. Real living rooms do have limitations.
These are just about ready for prime time. Maybe a bit of creative "Penguin" paint. Just one pair. (The WAF would not be good but the photo would be great)
Those without test tools should be heartened as he has done these entirely by ear.
I can verify these are getting pretty darn good. We were listening with no sub. Their f3 is in the 60 or so range so his description of real base is valid. Not the sub part, but real.
The cabinets are a bit oversize, but instead of a peaky roll-off as you expect in a too-big ported box, they sound a bit more like a sealed box rolling of easy to blend with the room. Doug's port design here needs further investigation to see what it is doing. The asymmetry bothers me in concept, but it seems to work. Joni Mitchel (Morgantown) did pretty well being properly balanced. Joan Baez (Diamonds and Rust) was just a tad off. Darn close. Their voices are just plain hard to get right. Harry James will show you why you may want to spend twice as much for a tweeter. Crank them high enough for Gliere (The Red Poppy) and you see where paying 5 times as much for Scan Speak comes into its own. Imaging was hampered by the too close bright wall. It was focused, but constrained within the speaker width. Real living rooms do have limitations.
These are just about ready for prime time. Maybe a bit of creative "Penguin" paint. Just one pair. (The WAF would not be good but the photo would be great)
Those without test tools should be heartened as he has done these entirely by ear.
Thanks for stopping by, I had a few surprises also - BACH Toccata & Fugue in d. First Congregation Church; never would have but that on, but it's a great demo CD. Wow! I laugh every time I hear it!
Really need to give a shout out to Michael C., This project got of the ground because of his advise, and MS designed the LEAP xo.
What did I do? I dreamed up the flare ports, which was inspired by working on full range boxes.
A musician also stopped by yesterday, he was simply amazed; we only had pop music, and watched a few movie scenes, but they seem handle a wide range of sounds.
I wish I had a truck load of them, they would be an easy sell!
Silver Flute woofer - $29
Vifa tweeter - $32 - $35
Really need to give a shout out to Michael C., This project got of the ground because of his advise, and MS designed the LEAP xo.
What did I do? I dreamed up the flare ports, which was inspired by working on full range boxes.
A musician also stopped by yesterday, he was simply amazed; we only had pop music, and watched a few movie scenes, but they seem handle a wide range of sounds.
I wish I had a truck load of them, they would be an easy sell!
Silver Flute woofer - $29
Vifa tweeter - $32 - $35
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Measured the TSP on a broken in Silver FLute. WAY different from the spec. Would believe it's VAS is LESS? Yes it is. Verified model performance in a 10L box.
First thing I noticed is a serious problem with the pole piece vent. Too small and it will whistle at low frequencies above 2 Watts. This is something I think they could improve. It also causes quite a glitch at 900 Hz. It rolls off faster above 1K that the charts would suggest.
Posted is the nearfield in 10L sealed box with a Q of .69. I will do 1 meter outside as soon as it warm up a bit. 34 degrees, a bit chilly.
First thing I noticed is a serious problem with the pole piece vent. Too small and it will whistle at low frequencies above 2 Watts. This is something I think they could improve. It also causes quite a glitch at 900 Hz. It rolls off faster above 1K that the charts would suggest.
Posted is the nearfield in 10L sealed box with a Q of .69. I will do 1 meter outside as soon as it warm up a bit. 34 degrees, a bit chilly.
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What the target for the MS notch filter (750hz)? Also surprised this woofer needs the "large" 1.5 coil, looking at the test response (although I found this to be the case with experimenting).
I added just a little more damping wool; up to 5.9oz, which I thought worked nicely.
btw, we could try the MDT 30s, have a few of them laying around, they'll go down to 1,500.
I added just a little more damping wool; up to 5.9oz, which I thought worked nicely.
btw, we could try the MDT 30s, have a few of them laying around, they'll go down to 1,500.
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