fdegrove said:
My guess, is that microdiodes would be more likely to occur with enamelled wire than with an insulator like Tefzel. This is because I read: "The enamel is a synthetic compound of cellulose acetate (wood pulp and magnesium)." And in order for there to be any type diode junction (between wire and insulator), the insulator needs to be somewhat conductive (though of course an insulator). Magnesium is more conductive than Tefzel and PVC. Otherwise, I got the impression for one of your previous posts that the oxide on silver may be less conducive (than copper oxide) to the microdiode effect.
Quotation from (enamel reference about half way down):
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/montecarlo/marine-electrical/Ch12.htm
JF
johnferrier said:
That reference must be pretty old. About the only people using the old "plain enamel" magnet wire these days are those who make reproduction guitar pickups.
The most common insulations used on magnet wire these days is polyurethane and polyester.
The magnet wire from Vampire that we're using for the directionality listening tests uses polyurethane.
se
Insulating enamel doesn't contain enough magnesium as a metal to achieve much conductivity- the magnesium is present in catalytic amounts, like the tin or platinum in silicone insulating resins. Its conductivity varies a lot, but IIRC, it's not too different than PVC (which also has something of a range of conductivities). Tefzel is a whole lot less conductive than either of them, but we're talking about viruses versus bacteria in a realm where we're weighing walruses.
JF, I think that the microdiode model fits well within a modified varistor model. Think about ceramic grain boundaries, not with zinc, but with copper, or other metal impurities. Frank, I suspect you are referring to oxidization of strand surfaces which is greater in stranded wire, because of the greater surface area exposed to air, either during processing or over time.
The reason I suspect this, is the close relationship to diode-like behavior, and the possibility of steep slopes that would easily give higher order distortion. It fits the measurements.
This is an example of how we learn new things. Not just by reading a book, or technical journal, although I have perhaps a thousand of them lying around my apartment, not just by taking a course, although I have taken more technical courses than my average critic, or just guessing.
First, you note a phemonena, maybe a difference in the sound of different wires. This is confirmed by your associates, who even may have heard it first. Then you try to measure differences in wires. Perhaps you find differences, even some that you are surprised to be there. You attempt to hypothesize the mechanism. You attempt to find the direct mechanism in the literature, if possible, and you try to fit any found mechanism into your measurement data. This might NOT be the scientific method, but it works well enough for me.
The reason I suspect this, is the close relationship to diode-like behavior, and the possibility of steep slopes that would easily give higher order distortion. It fits the measurements.
This is an example of how we learn new things. Not just by reading a book, or technical journal, although I have perhaps a thousand of them lying around my apartment, not just by taking a course, although I have taken more technical courses than my average critic, or just guessing.
First, you note a phemonena, maybe a difference in the sound of different wires. This is confirmed by your associates, who even may have heard it first. Then you try to measure differences in wires. Perhaps you find differences, even some that you are surprised to be there. You attempt to hypothesize the mechanism. You attempt to find the direct mechanism in the literature, if possible, and you try to fit any found mechanism into your measurement data. This might NOT be the scientific method, but it works well enough for me.
JF, I think that the microdiode model fits well within a modified varistor model. Think about ceramic grain boundaries, not with zinc, but with copper, or other metal impurities. Frank, I first suspected that you were referring to oxidization of strand surfaces which is greater in stranded wire, because of the greater surface area exposed to air, either during processing or over time. Now you hint at the wire/insulator interface. Interesting.
The reason I suspect this, is the close relationship to diode-like behavior, and the possibility of steep slopes that would easily give higher order distortion. It fits the measurements.
This is an example of how we learn new things. Not just by reading a book, or technical journal, although I have perhaps a thousand of them lying around my apartment, not just by taking a course, although I have taken more technical courses than my average critic, or just guessing.
First, you note a phemonena, maybe a difference in the sound of different wires. This is confirmed by your associates, who even may have heard it first. Then you try to measure differences in wires. Perhaps you find differences, even some that you are surprised to be there. You attempt to hypothesize the mechanism. You attempt to find the direct mechanism in the literature, if possible, and you try to fit any found mechanism into your measurement data. This might NOT be the scientific method, but it works well enough for me.
The reason I suspect this, is the close relationship to diode-like behavior, and the possibility of steep slopes that would easily give higher order distortion. It fits the measurements.
This is an example of how we learn new things. Not just by reading a book, or technical journal, although I have perhaps a thousand of them lying around my apartment, not just by taking a course, although I have taken more technical courses than my average critic, or just guessing.
First, you note a phemonena, maybe a difference in the sound of different wires. This is confirmed by your associates, who even may have heard it first. Then you try to measure differences in wires. Perhaps you find differences, even some that you are surprised to be there. You attempt to hypothesize the mechanism. You attempt to find the direct mechanism in the literature, if possible, and you try to fit any found mechanism into your measurement data. This might NOT be the scientific method, but it works well enough for me.
Hi,
Indeed, John. A process that's not so likely to happen with enamel, polyurethane, polyester types of coating on a single strand provided the bare, uncoated wire is processed quickly enough as it leaves the die.
A method of doing away with intercrystal boundaries altogether is used nowadays on some high-end cable and is called fusion.
I think the process is explained on A..J. van den Hul's site and it's done by Phelps-Dodge in New Jersey U.S of A.
The idea is to add a metal to the basis metal that actually fills the gaps at the crystal boundaries. It's a bit more complicated than that but it seems to be effective.
A month ago I had the chance to listen to the Deskadel silver and gold alloy wires and I was impressed by their neutral balance.
Air pockets captured inbetween the insulating polymers and the wire proper.
That was hint #2.
I must have some pages with references on my hard drive, I'll try to post some links later.
These microdiodes are nothing new and neither are barrier micro discharges for that matter, both phenomena are studied and applied in nanoelectronics.
It is some kind of static build up on the barrier between insulator and conductor (not DA release) causing microdischarges into the conductor(s).
Much to my surprise these are all things we heard empirically in wires and science seems to confirm it 10 to 15 years later.
Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to measure all of this but I'm sure it can be done once you know what to look for.
Cheers,
Indeed, John. A process that's not so likely to happen with enamel, polyurethane, polyester types of coating on a single strand provided the bare, uncoated wire is processed quickly enough as it leaves the die.
A method of doing away with intercrystal boundaries altogether is used nowadays on some high-end cable and is called fusion.
I think the process is explained on A..J. van den Hul's site and it's done by Phelps-Dodge in New Jersey U.S of A.
The idea is to add a metal to the basis metal that actually fills the gaps at the crystal boundaries. It's a bit more complicated than that but it seems to be effective.
A month ago I had the chance to listen to the Deskadel silver and gold alloy wires and I was impressed by their neutral balance.
Air pockets captured inbetween the insulating polymers and the wire proper.
That was hint #2.
I must have some pages with references on my hard drive, I'll try to post some links later.
These microdiodes are nothing new and neither are barrier micro discharges for that matter, both phenomena are studied and applied in nanoelectronics.
It is some kind of static build up on the barrier between insulator and conductor (not DA release) causing microdischarges into the conductor(s).
Much to my surprise these are all things we heard empirically in wires and science seems to confirm it 10 to 15 years later.
Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to measure all of this but I'm sure it can be done once you know what to look for.
Cheers,
Hi,
No....You won't even have to add manganese to copper anyway, it contains some in its natural raw state already.
It may result into something similar but adding a metal just creates an alloy, you want the wire in an amorphous state which requires a forced cooling process as is used to create....ta da...amorphous cores for your cherished OPTs amongst other applications.
Phelps-Dodge has always been kind enough to do special OEM requests but as you may realise they don't exactly do that kind of thing for free either. Let's just say some of us are glad they are willing to do it anyways.
Funny how some people can read me correctly if they want to...I don't hear John Curl screaming: "Prove it!"
So, use those grey cells, I know you can if you want to.
Now you can look up "dielectric barrier discharges" for academic research if you'd like.
I know I did so I don't have to second guess anyone....
A forum is an exchange of information, Steve, not a taskforce for you to deploy.
Cheers,
No....You won't even have to add manganese to copper anyway, it contains some in its natural raw state already.
It may result into something similar but adding a metal just creates an alloy, you want the wire in an amorphous state which requires a forced cooling process as is used to create....ta da...amorphous cores for your cherished OPTs amongst other applications.
Phelps-Dodge has always been kind enough to do special OEM requests but as you may realise they don't exactly do that kind of thing for free either. Let's just say some of us are glad they are willing to do it anyways.
Funny how some people can read me correctly if they want to...I don't hear John Curl screaming: "Prove it!"
So, use those grey cells, I know you can if you want to.
Now you can look up "dielectric barrier discharges" for academic research if you'd like.
I know I did so I don't have to second guess anyone....
A forum is an exchange of information, Steve, not a taskforce for you to deploy.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:No....You won't even have to add manganese to copper anyway, it contains some in its natural raw state already.
Cheers,
another way is to make ionic oxygen atoms or neutrons and trap them in copper, again, in ionic forms. As the oxygen neutrons jump from crystal to crystal, it will create atomic discrete energy states and randomly releases or absorbs energy from the crystals. As the ionic particles have their own state of spinning (usually 1 left, half left and 1 right), they force copper electrons out of their own 'resident" state in copper crystals. This may create instantaneous charge of discharge of the ionic copper wire - otherwise known as ionic semiconducting.
the key, is you can see, is to generate and trap enough of those oxygen neutrons in copper crystals and excite them with enough energy so that they will transformer their spins to copper electrons.
The same works with metal hydrogen but that's some explosive stuff for home audio.
fdegrove said:
But they add more in order to improve crystal formation.
Wasn't able to find anything on the net regarding amorphous copper-silver-zinc alloys.
I'll give 'em a call tomorrow and ask them about this amorphous copper-silver-zinc alloy.
Ok.
Seems that "dielectric barrier discharges" are a phenomenon of plasma systems.
Wasn't aware that audio interconnects and speaker cables were plasma systems. At least I my interconnects and speaker cables aren't producing any ionized gasses.
se
Hi,
Guessing or knowing?
Did you really expect any different? Do you actually expect people with a vested interest to go public on this?
Obviously you haven't looked too hard as I have at least two returns from the search engine.
Obviously you don't know what OEM work implies, do you? Expect a blank stare on this one unless you can convince Paul...Which I doubt.
See, now you have the first name but not the last...
Doesn't it surprise you at least one bit that I know these folks by their first name, Steve?
Do you want to pay through the nose when most of the info I'm throwing your way is not a phone call away but right there on the net and is just common sense?
Yes, you'd have to understand how these discharges can take place in I/Cs and L/S cable in the first place but it can be done as it is real but conditional.
IOW words it won't happen in all wires.
Time for you to reread the thread and piece it together in an intelligent manner.
Cheers,
Guessing or knowing?
Did you really expect any different? Do you actually expect people with a vested interest to go public on this?
Obviously you haven't looked too hard as I have at least two returns from the search engine.
Obviously you don't know what OEM work implies, do you? Expect a blank stare on this one unless you can convince Paul...Which I doubt.
See, now you have the first name but not the last...
Doesn't it surprise you at least one bit that I know these folks by their first name, Steve?
Do you want to pay through the nose when most of the info I'm throwing your way is not a phone call away but right there on the net and is just common sense?
Yes, you'd have to understand how these discharges can take place in I/Cs and L/S cable in the first place but it can be done as it is real but conditional.
IOW words it won't happen in all wires.
Time for you to reread the thread and piece it together in an intelligent manner.
Cheers,
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