Yes, Experience Counts.......
Thanks for your further encouraging words, though I clearly know both of your points already.
A live PA/stage system can actually be a very good instrument for showing up differences at line/mic levels.
Of course a live system is a multiple recursive system (FOH sound gets into the mics, then back out of the monitors and back into the FOH PA, monitor sounds getting into other mics etc.............), so relatively small tonal changes at source/preamp levels are magnified immensely - no golden ears needed to distinguish differences in this situation.
I dare say that it is a gold-clad bet that SE has sadly no useful experience at this kind of level, ....... and never will.
Eric.
John, hi again,john curl said:
Thanks for your further encouraging words, though I clearly know both of your points already.
A live PA/stage system can actually be a very good instrument for showing up differences at line/mic levels.
Of course a live system is a multiple recursive system (FOH sound gets into the mics, then back out of the monitors and back into the FOH PA, monitor sounds getting into other mics etc.............), so relatively small tonal changes at source/preamp levels are magnified immensely - no golden ears needed to distinguish differences in this situation.
I dare say that it is a gold-clad bet that SE has sadly no useful experience at this kind of level, ....... and never will.
Eric.
"Due diligence" is a standard term used in finance and business. If a company is looking for investment, a loan, merger & acquisition, or the like, the due diligence process is the investigation of the company's claims by the folks who are going to lay out the cash. As an example, the company claims that they booked $5MM in orders last year. Did they really? Let's see the paid invoices. They claim to be selling $500K a month of wadgets to Harmon on a long-term basis; OK, call Harmon and verify that. They claim to have 62 patents; fine, get copies of all of them.
Re: Doublespeak Millwood Style.......
thanks SY for the excellent explanation. I thought it shouldn't be such a big deal but I was wrong.
maybe an example in Eric's world would help more. Say a pro audio sales rep comes to your bar / nightclub, wanting to sell you their top of the line mixing console, AudioGizmo.
The rep started like this: "Hi, Eric, our AudioGizmo is great. Not only it mixes music, it also makes a cow sound like Britney Spears while making StarDust coffee for you at the same time. Plus, when I was mixing live concert for Britney Spears last week, all those musicisns raved about how good it sounded. Those pros definitely know high-end when they hear one, don't you think? You definitely can hear the improvement."
What do you do?
1) pulling out your credit card and order 23 of AudioGizmo on the spot;
2) taking out your check book and write a $2 million check for 2 AudioGizmo;
3) read the sales bruchure and order 40 AudioGizmo;
4) ask the guy for a demo, and listen to it yourself in your club, and talk to people who have experienced AudioGizmo and see how good of a coffee this thing makes. if it works out OK, you then order it.
If your answer is 4), you just "diligenced" out the product,
mrfeedback said:
thanks SY for the excellent explanation. I thought it shouldn't be such a big deal but I was wrong.
maybe an example in Eric's world would help more. Say a pro audio sales rep comes to your bar / nightclub, wanting to sell you their top of the line mixing console, AudioGizmo.
The rep started like this: "Hi, Eric, our AudioGizmo is great. Not only it mixes music, it also makes a cow sound like Britney Spears while making StarDust coffee for you at the same time. Plus, when I was mixing live concert for Britney Spears last week, all those musicisns raved about how good it sounded. Those pros definitely know high-end when they hear one, don't you think? You definitely can hear the improvement."
What do you do?
1) pulling out your credit card and order 23 of AudioGizmo on the spot;
2) taking out your check book and write a $2 million check for 2 AudioGizmo;
3) read the sales bruchure and order 40 AudioGizmo;
4) ask the guy for a demo, and listen to it yourself in your club, and talk to people who have experienced AudioGizmo and see how good of a coffee this thing makes. if it works out OK, you then order it.
If your answer is 4), you just "diligenced" out the product,
Another Factor In Wires/Cables..............
" ...........Wolff had a special interest in how electrons behaved on the surface of a metal. He already knew that electrons ripple around on the surface in strange waves called " surface plasmons". If you want to get technical, the physicists say that these strange waves are "collective electronic excitations, or charge density waves, which are characterized by intense electromagnetic fields confined to the surface". In plain English, the electrons behave like waves, not particles, and these waves ripple around on the surface of metals - a bit like how waves ripple on the surface of the water of a pond when small boats sail across it. "
Insulation materials typically are in intimate contact with surfaces of metallic conductors.
This conductor/insulation interface is ripe for interactions both mechanical and electrical (electronic).
With insulation DA, DH, DL etc etc interacting with conductor surfaces, I would be surprised if all cables/wires sounded the same.
Eric.
" ...........Wolff had a special interest in how electrons behaved on the surface of a metal. He already knew that electrons ripple around on the surface in strange waves called " surface plasmons". If you want to get technical, the physicists say that these strange waves are "collective electronic excitations, or charge density waves, which are characterized by intense electromagnetic fields confined to the surface". In plain English, the electrons behave like waves, not particles, and these waves ripple around on the surface of metals - a bit like how waves ripple on the surface of the water of a pond when small boats sail across it. "
Insulation materials typically are in intimate contact with surfaces of metallic conductors.
This conductor/insulation interface is ripe for interactions both mechanical and electrical (electronic).
With insulation DA, DH, DL etc etc interacting with conductor surfaces, I would be surprised if all cables/wires sounded the same.
Eric.
brother SY, think "intermodulation" between those little electrons, between the neutrinos and electrons, electrons and crystals, quantum spins, etc.
think about this little poor electron happily on its way from one crystal to the next. all in a sudden, it is knocked out by a neutrino out of nowhere. what do you hear? coarser sound, higher THD figures, rougher sinewaves, etc. all sorts of bad things that our friends with godly ears can hear, especially in a nightbar after a few Martinees.
I can see my little business for neutrino shields going through the roof,
think about this little poor electron happily on its way from one crystal to the next. all in a sudden, it is knocked out by a neutrino out of nowhere. what do you hear? coarser sound, higher THD figures, rougher sinewaves, etc. all sorts of bad things that our friends with godly ears can hear, especially in a nightbar after a few Martinees.
I can see my little business for neutrino shields going through the roof,
SY said:
that's the point that some of us fail to grasp. there is no shortage of theories that thing X can impact sound quality of your amp. However, until and unless someone proves that the impact is material, all the talks about those throies, each of them is completely valid and scientific, is irrelevant.
Steve Eddy said:
the difference is that Eric has 35 years of experience working with audio equipment used in bars and nightclubs; Eric has friends who are pro audio people; Eric knows high-end when he hears it, as Eric's friends do too; and Eric can and will express his opinion here as many times as he wants, etc.
Whether all the above can be confirmed is irrelevant.
Re: Another Factor In Wires/Cables..............
Great. So what are the ACTUAL CONSEQUENCES of all this?
You can sit spinning theories all day long if you like and scaring the bejeezus out of yourself and others imagining all the ill effects which might result from them. But what have you got at the end of the day?
Nothing.
Nothing but a pile of theories scattered all over the floor.
And all the amusing anecdotes you care to pile on top of them do nothing to affirm anything. They just add to the clutter.
I mention the likes of Peter Belt because your amusing anecdotes piled atop a bunch of theories are on no firmer ground than Belt's amusing anecdotes piled atop a bunch of his theories.
Until you take the next step and demonstrate some actual consequences, then you might as well be practicing medieval medicine and join the ranks of Theodoric of York: Medieval Barber.
se
mrfeedback said:
Great. So what are the ACTUAL CONSEQUENCES of all this?
You can sit spinning theories all day long if you like and scaring the bejeezus out of yourself and others imagining all the ill effects which might result from them. But what have you got at the end of the day?
Nothing.
Nothing but a pile of theories scattered all over the floor.
And all the amusing anecdotes you care to pile on top of them do nothing to affirm anything. They just add to the clutter.
I mention the likes of Peter Belt because your amusing anecdotes piled atop a bunch of theories are on no firmer ground than Belt's amusing anecdotes piled atop a bunch of his theories.
Until you take the next step and demonstrate some actual consequences, then you might as well be practicing medieval medicine and join the ranks of Theodoric of York: Medieval Barber.
se
millwood said:
And that's why high-end audio is so littered with this stuff. ANYONE can spin theories. And as Peter Belt illustrates, absolutely NOTHING is too absurd. You can literally make stuff up out of thin air, give it just the merest hint of some possible truth (for example using buzzwords like "quantum physics") and not only will you find people willing to try whatever it is you're offering, you'll also get people who will say that it brought about a tremendous improvement that you can then pass on as amusing anecdotes.
And you'll be on just as firm ground as Eric is with his "leads" and amusing anecdotes.
And we'll have advanced our knowledge and understanding not one nanometer.
That's why high-end audio is the technological backwater that it is. It just keeps regurgitating the same theory spinning and amusing anecdotes.
se
That's a bit circular if you define high-end audio as that which has no real basis in solid experimental fact. If you take a broader definition, as I do, there's wonderful and technologically germane stuff being done by lots of people. It's just that they're not looking at magic beads and power cords, they're actually out there unravelling the mysteries of psychoacoustics and reproduction in real-world rooms.
SY said:
Certainly there's some real technical research going on in the broader field of audio. So perhaps I should have put high-end audio in quotes to distinguish those who believe spinning theories combined with amusing anecdotes constitutes real technical research from those who actually do real technical research.
se
SY said:
I would completely agree. I think folks like Pass and Curl are doing real research in producing better products and advancing our understanding of audio.
I don't agree with either Pass nor Curl on anything. But I respect both, and think they know what they are talking about and have a genuine interest in making things better, rather than making a name for themselves as they are so established.
as such, I appreciate Curl's observations on cable in spite of the fact that we disagree on the very subject.
You know folks! I was always told that: "Contempt, without examination, is PREJUDICE" I believe that not trying something, not attempting to make actual measurements, and showing contempt of anything outside ones own paradigm is effectively, prejudice. This is what is going on this, and some other threads on this and other websites.
millwood said:
Well, we don't as yet know that John has observed anything having to do with the cables themselves.
While I can appreciate that he made an effort, his "research" on the matter has all the rigor and logic of Theodoric of York.
He makes some distortion measurements, sees some difference, leaps to a conclusion ("microdiodes") and then proceeds to pass his conclusions off as fact ("Hate to be the one to tell you, BUT there are diodes in your metal wires. More than you will ever bother to measure. I have measured them.").
That's right up there with "We had a sick patient. We theorized that it was due to bad blood. So we drained him of a couple of pints of blood. The patient survived. Therefore it was the bad blood which made the patient sick."
se
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