Tenson said:
Room design is a rather massive topic and not really on the topic here. My book is a good source of info. A new thread on room design and loudspeaker setup might be appropriate.
One thing that I will say that is on topic is that I hope that builders of the Nathans set them up correctly. I, of course, can't control this. These speakers were not designed to be listened to on-axis, they are flattest at 22.5° off-axis. To be off axis there are two directions, but clearly only the one with the speakers facing towards the center of the room makes sense and this is what they were design for. This makes for the largest "sweet spot" possible. In that configuration it is important not to have anything that can diffract the sound between the speakers. This diffraction would be serious as it would cause an image complication and coloration from the delayed signal. Its best not to have the speakers back against the wall and to have as much absorption behind the speakers as possible. A very heavy drap or curtain hung out about a foot with a lot of damping material on the wall behind it it is what I do. The room behind the listener is far less critical than that behind the speakers, but floor, ceiling and sidewall reflections are all very important. The floor can be broken up with a coffee table and a rug (so long as the coffee table is not too big). The side walls can and should have reflection treatments more to scatter the reflection than to absorb it. Ceilings are virtually always the weak spot in the rooms that I have seen because anything that you do is obvious and its always difficult because it has to be hung.
So thats some placement suggestions that I have found work in the multitudes of rooms that I have done.
The setup that Marcus showed earlier in this thread is typical (speakers against the wall and on the floor, pointing at the listener, with an equipment cabinet in between), but as you can see from the discussion here, it is not what I would recommend.
Re: Re: Re: Re: costs
trade secret... no reason can't make more than one at a time...
heck, I've grown electroforms with over 2" of nickel/copper on ss or al mandrels
did I say that?
Earl, your design and theoretical credentials are impeccable, you're technology looks great, but you're mfg. and marketing skills need an "extreme makeover"....
and why the " " around the manufacturing engineers in the other thread re: casting the complete baffle? Seems to me to indicate a condescending attitude about their suggestions, as if the term doesn't mean what it sounds like.
John L.
soongsc said:
trade secret... no reason can't make more than one at a time...
heck, I've grown electroforms with over 2" of nickel/copper on ss or al mandrels
markus76[/i][B] Electroforming sounds interesting but doesn't the mandrel need to be specially treated for every use? [/B][/QUOTE] just needs to be conductive... in a special way [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gedlee said:
did I say that?
Earl, your design and theoretical credentials are impeccable, you're technology looks great, but you're mfg. and marketing skills need an "extreme makeover"....
and why the " " around the manufacturing engineers in the other thread re: casting the complete baffle? Seems to me to indicate a condescending attitude about their suggestions, as if the term doesn't mean what it sounds like.
John L.
Why do you think that's critical? The speakers will be on stands in the final setup. All boundaries are more than 50 cm away so there should be no problem with summing localization.
Reflections from the equipment are scattered away from the listening position. The TV even aids in covering the first early reflections from the inner part of the front wall.
Best, Markus
"Reflections from the equipment are scattered away from the listening position. "
Diffraction goes in all directions so this isn't true of diffraction. It has been my experience that diffracting elements close to the speakers are disruptive to the sound quality. This has been confirmed by the experiments that Lidia and I did. Maybe it is out of the summing localization window, but 50 cm will still be well within the region where colloration and image shifts will occur.
Markus, set your speakers up any way you want. I'm just giving my recommendations.
Diffraction goes in all directions so this isn't true of diffraction. It has been my experience that diffracting elements close to the speakers are disruptive to the sound quality. This has been confirmed by the experiments that Lidia and I did. Maybe it is out of the summing localization window, but 50 cm will still be well within the region where colloration and image shifts will occur.
Markus, set your speakers up any way you want. I'm just giving my recommendations.
"and why the " " around the manufacturing engineers in the other thread re: casting the complete baffle? Seems to me to indicate a condescending attitude about their suggestions, as if the term doesn't mean what it sounds like."
There are two degreed manufacturing engineers who believe so strongly in what I am doing that they help me out for free. I have nothing but respect for them - and I show it (unlike you).
There are two degreed manufacturing engineers who believe so strongly in what I am doing that they help me out for free. I have nothing but respect for them - and I show it (unlike you).
That's why I posted. Don't feel provoked by my comments. I'm just trying to adjust my knowledge with that of others.
The diffracted wave from the edges of the TV and cabinet that reaches the ear directly is so low in volume (how much?) that I can't believe that it will cause image shift. I would have to look up the threshold levels.
Best, Markus
markus76 said:
You will find that there isn't any data in this regard, except what Lidia and I have published. The level is indeed low, but because diffraction occurs latter in time than the direct sound it has no masking in either time or frequency and as such tends to be audible even at these low levels. In my room I went to as much care to reduce very near diffraction as was possible. This appears to have paid off big dividends.
The HOMs and horn diffraction are also very low in level and yet they appear to be significant contributors to poor sound quality. If you go to extremes to reduce diffraction in the waveguide (as I do) but don't take the same care with diffraction in the room then much of the advantage is defeated.
Its impossible not to be defensive here.
gedlee said:
touched a nerve, eh?
Right back atcha.. Dr. Geddes, respect is a double edge sword..
good luck.
soongsc said:
Seeing as how EF nickel is ~120 - 150 ksi in tension, which is at least an order of magnitude greater than any poly(whatever), the thickness can be greatly reduced for equivalent stiffness.
John L.
ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!
Am I the only one here that is tired of the venom being expressed in this thread? The tone is terrible. Many of you sound like whining children rather than thinking adults. To put it blunt, MANY OF YOU SOUND LIKE MORONS.
Dr Geddes is a scientist and not a manufacturing engineer. He has never claimed to be anything else. The work that he is sharing with us (for free!) is truly worthy of a little extra sanding. Too many here are talking out the wrong bodily orifice. It is this kind of behaviour that stops many skilled and interesting people from participating in these forums.
NOW GET OVER IT. Don't bother flaming me as I won't respond.
I for one am looking forward to a pair of Abbeys. And I have already budgeted for extra sand paper. Big deal ...
Am I the only one here that is tired of the venom being expressed in this thread? The tone is terrible. Many of you sound like whining children rather than thinking adults. To put it blunt, MANY OF YOU SOUND LIKE MORONS.
Dr Geddes is a scientist and not a manufacturing engineer. He has never claimed to be anything else. The work that he is sharing with us (for free!) is truly worthy of a little extra sanding. Too many here are talking out the wrong bodily orifice. It is this kind of behaviour that stops many skilled and interesting people from participating in these forums.
NOW GET OVER IT. Don't bother flaming me as I won't respond.
I for one am looking forward to a pair of Abbeys. And I have already budgeted for extra sand paper. Big deal ...
Carl, no need to be rude. Discussion hear is broad and sometimes a little bit too personal but nonetheless everybody here knows how to cope with that without feeling the need to abuse others.
Earl, are there any papers in JAES or similar publications? I have easy access to that and always love to learn something new.
And yes, there'll be definitely a new thread called "Placing the Nathan 10"
Why is there no room acoustics section in this board??
Best, Markus
Earl, are there any papers in JAES or similar publications? I have easy access to that and always love to learn something new.
And yes, there'll be definitely a new thread called "Placing the Nathan 10"
Why is there no room acoustics section in this board??Best, Markus
An interesting thing I find about discussion boards is that since we rarely meet the folk we write to and read, we don't have all the non verbal cues which modify meaning.
Because of this we sometimes misunderstand the intention behind statements.
Also, this means some folk sometimes write things they would never say in person.
Sometimes this is good. People can express thoughts without being interrupted, they can recover a lost chain of conversation and this rarely happens in ordinary conversation.
And, of course when people invest a lot of thought, time and energy to anything, their instinct is to defend it, rightly so, I think. But this doesn't necessarily lead to peaceful discussion.
I have a quick temper and I find I now deep six about 30% of the posts I write.
Because of this we sometimes misunderstand the intention behind statements.
Also, this means some folk sometimes write things they would never say in person.
Sometimes this is good. People can express thoughts without being interrupted, they can recover a lost chain of conversation and this rarely happens in ordinary conversation.
And, of course when people invest a lot of thought, time and energy to anything, their instinct is to defend it, rightly so, I think. But this doesn't necessarily lead to peaceful discussion.
I have a quick temper and I find I now deep six about 30% of the posts I write.
Carl_Huff said:
You realize that you're the one typing in all caps, using insulting names and vulgar commentary?
He's not sharing it for free. He's repeatedly talked about making money on this endeavor, not to mention that IP is an instant amortization from an accounting perspective (in this instance, since it has no 'exclusive' patent coverage vs. the previously released product) but is still built into the price.
Big deal? The throats, which have been claimed to be of utmost importance in precision, are going to be brought to precise by the buyer with sandpaper in the case of the terrible fiberglass horns? As if they can 'finger feel' the exact profile with any precision?
You sound like someone on audio review who needs to vehemently defend their purchase decisions as the best thing ever.
ShinOBIWAN said:Pjpoes, when does your order from Earl arrive then?
Here's some commentary about the Nathan kits from a Summa owner, if anyone is interested.
I've been listening to and building horns and waveguides since the 90s. I bought a pair of Summas, fully aware that they were built by hand and that there might be an imperfection here and there.
You know what? They look 10 times better than I'd expected. The finish is about as good as it gets when they're built by hand.
Are there better looking speakers? Yes, absolutely. But I'm more interested in what a speaker SOUNDS like than what it LOOKS like.
Honestly, it's frustrating to see everyone get so upset about the finish on the kits. I work from home, listen to my Summas for eight to twelve hours every day, and LOVE THEM.
Hell, I use my Summas more than I use my car, so this is a BARGAIN as far as I'm concerned.
I just painted my living room to match the speakers, I can post some pics if you guys would like to see my attempts at blending them into a modern decor. They're not easy to hide, but the sound is worth it IMHO.
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