Re: Re: Re: paint
Water based paint is nice if you don't need the gloss. Smooths out naturally and much easier to deal with shapes that are a bit difficult to access. The glossy type never really gets close to mirror sooth with sparkle. Some car paint is really interesting. It's reflection can look smooth from one angle but not from another. Black looks a bit deeper.DrumDude said:
Soonsc, I think you may be a bit behind the curve when it comes to water based paints.
Water based polyurethane floor paint can shine up beautifully and water based car paints also.
Given the nature of MDF, best to seal it with something which is not water based, but once that's done....
See this post and the connecting reference, interesting pictures:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1300129#post1300129
Water based polyurethane floor paint can shine up beautifully and water based car paints also.
Given the nature of MDF, best to seal it with something which is not water based, but once that's done....
See this post and the connecting reference, interesting pictures:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1300129#post1300129
you might find those little tuner shops with custom paint services will do it. Around me there are lots of those owned by young guys in their 20's and 30's who are good enough for this work, and sometimes even looking for work. I've had panels painted before by these types of shops, and often were used to dealing with custom car audio installation shops sending work their way. I will say though, they will want most of the prep work done for them, as they aren't typically used to mdf. The guy I had used once wanted all prep work done, including the filling of all imperfections. He also asked that I seal the cabinet myself as he wasn't sure how his expertise would lend itself to this. Having done all the hard work for him, he only charged me something like 50 dollars to pain the enclosures (I did the finish work afterwards too). I've heard of shops charging upwards of 500 dollars for similar work where they do all prep and final finishing work for you, so keep that in mind.
Being in the cabinet business somewhat for both speaker cabinets and kitchen type cabinets, I can tell you that you would probably expect anywhere from $400 to $1200 a piece for a cabinet like this nicely finished. That is with material supplied and fully assembled and painted. It depends on the level of finish you want. Most cabinet shops don't have ability to properly do piano gloss, etc.
I can estimate we'd have about $400 into a fully finished cabinet with the textured duratex finish as we did on these studio monitors. http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701
A piano gloss finish would add about $200-250 per cabinet as it gets quite labor intensive.
Not trying to sell cabinets, just giving you an idea of what you can expect. Obviously in quantity the price goes down quite a bit.
John
I can estimate we'd have about $400 into a fully finished cabinet with the textured duratex finish as we did on these studio monitors. http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701
A piano gloss finish would add about $200-250 per cabinet as it gets quite labor intensive.
Not trying to sell cabinets, just giving you an idea of what you can expect. Obviously in quantity the price goes down quite a bit.
John
Hi markus76,
I urge you to forget about the sanding sealer. Sanding sealer was designed to fill very minor flaws but mostly its function to to provide an easy to sand coating that will harder the wood fibers left standing after bare wood sanding. Sanding sealers contain a wax/sterate it keeps the abrasive from gumming up. It can also cause huge adhesion problems with top coats. Modern "lacquers" dry fast enough and hard enough that sanding them is no problem so sanding sealer is pretty well obsolete in the industry.
I'd avoid the wood filler as well. It has to much shrinkage and not enough adhesion. Auto body surfacing putty will work much better and easier.
There are coating designed specifically for filling and sealing MDF edges, one coat usually does it. However, you'd need a spray gun and compressor and a place to spray.
Most places have contract wood finishers. Prices for typical jobs, spray stain and 2x clear coat runs about 4 cents a sq/in. here.
Don't go beyond the body filler before you know if you are finishing or someone else is. Then decide if you are using solvent or water base coatings not both. Ideally all the coatings should be from the same manufacturer and product line.
Spray equipment for water base coating must be rust proof. Not all guns are.
Good luck with your project!
I urge you to forget about the sanding sealer. Sanding sealer was designed to fill very minor flaws but mostly its function to to provide an easy to sand coating that will harder the wood fibers left standing after bare wood sanding. Sanding sealers contain a wax/sterate it keeps the abrasive from gumming up. It can also cause huge adhesion problems with top coats. Modern "lacquers" dry fast enough and hard enough that sanding them is no problem so sanding sealer is pretty well obsolete in the industry.
I'd avoid the wood filler as well. It has to much shrinkage and not enough adhesion. Auto body surfacing putty will work much better and easier.
There are coating designed specifically for filling and sealing MDF edges, one coat usually does it. However, you'd need a spray gun and compressor and a place to spray.
Most places have contract wood finishers. Prices for typical jobs, spray stain and 2x clear coat runs about 4 cents a sq/in. here.
Don't go beyond the body filler before you know if you are finishing or someone else is. Then decide if you are using solvent or water base coatings not both. Ideally all the coatings should be from the same manufacturer and product line.
Spray equipment for water base coating must be rust proof. Not all guns are.
Good luck with your project!
riff.ca said:
One of the biggest issues with MDF is that you need to get it fully sealed so it can no longer absorb moisture. We use a Sayerlack TU20 catalyzed polyurethane base coat, which is a sanding sealer. Very high solids. You will need to create a high build so you don't sand back through it and into unsealed MDF. If you sand through then the MDF can again absorb more moisture and you need another coat of sealer. You then scuff with 220-320 grit and spary the sayerlack catalyzed polyurethane top coat over it.
We've used literally every product possible over the years. Conversion varnish works well but cracks if you get it too thick. The catalyzed polyurethane is really the way to go if you are going to spray finish. You can wetsand and buff with any automotive buffing compound. I like the 3M fast cut and swirl mark remover best.
Lacquers will take many coats to seal up. One coat of the TU20 is equivalent to 4 coats of lacquer. Unless you are using a lacquer sanding sealer like the ones from Sherwin Williams you will spend forever trying to get enough build to the finish. As long as you are using the proper top coat and applying it within the proper window of time you will have no problems with adhesion.
Again, for a textured finish that you can vary greatly depending on your needs, the DuraTex is great stuff. It's self priming acrylic urethane, water based, very high build, sands easily, and seals easily. The first coat will soak in and seal the mdf ends. Make sure you get some good build as you dont' want to sand back into the raw mdf.
John
Nice of you to say so, but I find there's not a lot of difference between us and US folk. I do know, extremely well, some very mulish Canadians.
Well, I've known these guys for a long while, and it's more of an industrial place as opposed to a car body shop - they do trucks and buses and industrial machinery, big things, small things.
They are perhaps more flexible than a business that does just cars and if I'm not too impatient they can slip it in at some point when it's not going to cost them extra time, etc.
As well, they'd really enjoy telling me if my prep work wasn't good enough
That's the sticking point of course, I'm the one who will do all the $$ time $$ consuming work.
"You need to find magic invisible foam since the speakers look very nice without a shock in their mouth. "
Yes, it's a shame to have to hide the WG surface.
Dr. Geddes, might it be that only a small portion of HOM's are near the WG walls, and that a free-standing plug (adhered only near the throat) that expanded to something like 4-6" diameter would be sufficient?
Yes, it's a shame to have to hide the WG surface.
Dr. Geddes, might it be that only a small portion of HOM's are near the WG walls, and that a free-standing plug (adhered only near the throat) that expanded to something like 4-6" diameter would be sufficient?
John_E_Janowitz said:
3M is the polishing compaound that I found sofens the finish as it has a high solvent content. Used on two-part poly, its not going to be a problem, but on air dry acrylic it will be. There is a polish that works great on water based finishes, but I'll have to look up the name.
I find that the two-part water-based epoxy primer works great on MDF. It too is very high build and seals well. Being water based it is easy to work with.
noah katz said:
I guess thats a matter of opinion. I find the foam plug distinctive and attractive. From what I have found the more foam the better.
The HOM propagate through the whole device just as the normal wave does, but they, in fact, reflect off of the walls.
FrankWW said:
Nice of you to say so, but I find there's not a lot of difference between us and US folk. I do know, extremely well, some very mulish Canadians.
Being on the border I've spent a lot of time in Canada and I'd have to say that people there are friendlier. I know an African American (ex-NBA player, read wealthy) who moved to Toronto because he said that it was hands done less racist than any US city. I can believe that as I find it much more cosmopolitan than any US city.
Most of the European Redwings Hockey players live near me. My home town is pretty diverse - for Detroit!
Guys, you leave me clueless. I'll definitely use Glass-Lite from Evercoat to fill all holes.
Every step after that should be water based so it's easy to clean and reuse brush/roller. I don't have a spray gun and compressor so sealing must be achieveable with a roller and sanding.
After reaching a fully sealed and smooth surface there should be the option to a) roll on paint myself for a "ok" looking finish or b) bring the cabinets to a paintshop so they just need to apply the topcoat.
What widely avalable products do you recommend to get fully sealed cabinets that don't show adhesion problems with top coats?
I wanted to use that one because they promise that it's usable under a wide range of top coats but I'm not so sure anymore.
Best, Markus
Markus
Paint is certainly not my expertise, but if you are going to brush, I suggest the foam applicators. These put on a smoother finish than a brush.
That sealer is clearly for wood grain and MDF is a different animal. I'd use what the experts suggest. The ends of the MDF can be a real pain if you don't use the right technique and I've found that primer thickness is the key. Otherwise you seem to always be sanding through it and then the MDF swells at that point and you start all over again.
Paint is certainly not my expertise, but if you are going to brush, I suggest the foam applicators. These put on a smoother finish than a brush.
That sealer is clearly for wood grain and MDF is a different animal. I'd use what the experts suggest. The ends of the MDF can be a real pain if you don't use the right technique and I've found that primer thickness is the key. Otherwise you seem to always be sanding through it and then the MDF swells at that point and you start all over again.
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