It looks like I have a bit of work ahead of me! I tend to be very good at this type of thing once I have a solid grasp of all the concepts involved. I think I can do it. If the designer thinks it can be done I am all the more encouraged. I noticed you didn't post very many images, Remlab. Would there be any way I could get a few pictures of your work and/or tips that could give me a head start? I'd be grateful. I've repaired a few, but I've never modded a headphone before.
David
David
The most critical aspect of this project, in my opinion, is figuring out a way to get the HRTF correct. That means getting the response to peak at least 10db at 3khz relative to 1khz. Something I never tried but would be useful would be to shape the HRTF response with a dsp eq and see how it sounds. Here is a website that I found very educational and incredibly useful(After the fact).
Golden Ears -Truthful review based on measured data (Earphones, Headphones, Speakers, Mobile, DACs, Amplifiers)
It also touches on some philosophical aspects of equalizing headphones. The apple app sells for only $5.00(Accudio) and has an excellent 10 band parametric eq included. With this app, you can shape the response any way you want. It will make the Neo3 headphones work perfectly for only $5.00!
You do have to use their music player(Part of the app) to make it work though. The player can also play hi rez flac files on apple devices.
Golden Ears -Truthful review based on measured data (Earphones, Headphones, Speakers, Mobile, DACs, Amplifiers)
It also touches on some philosophical aspects of equalizing headphones. The apple app sells for only $5.00(Accudio) and has an excellent 10 band parametric eq included. With this app, you can shape the response any way you want. It will make the Neo3 headphones work perfectly for only $5.00!
You do have to use their music player(Part of the app) to make it work though. The player can also play hi rez flac files on apple devices.
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I should have said that it could "possibly" make them work perfectly, since the word "perfect" in the world of Hi Fi has the potential of being totally subjective..
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Super gluing 2 properly sized (inner radius) black painted hex nuts (paint after gluing. Also scratch the paint off the neo 3's at the glue site.)would work well to fasten the yoke to the Neo 3's if you wanted to take the totally "bare" approach. You can then try different things with the back opening that hopefully won't interfere with the movement of the yoke.
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Cool to see that you're back at it.
I agree 100% RE the HRTFs. If you're playing via PC you have absolute control, of course. Making a little in ear mic from a Panasonic WM61a is worth it many times over when you start playing with headphones.
If I were converting the Neo3 to a headphone driver I think that I would try to damp it as a little as possible and then use as minimal earpads as you can while still having an extended bass response. The more open you make headphones the more natural they can sound, I think. My brain falls for the illusion better.
I agree 100% RE the HRTFs. If you're playing via PC you have absolute control, of course. Making a little in ear mic from a Panasonic WM61a is worth it many times over when you start playing with headphones.
If I were converting the Neo3 to a headphone driver I think that I would try to damp it as a little as possible and then use as minimal earpads as you can while still having an extended bass response. The more open you make headphones the more natural they can sound, I think. My brain falls for the illusion better.
Ok, I bought 2 Panasonic WM61a's from digikey for $3.50 . Ill give it another shot..
For those not familiar with the "free field" HRTF curve..
http://www.ap.com/images/audio.tst/2010/07/pinnae.png
Believe it or not, This is how headphones have to measure in order to sound somewhat similar to flat measuring loudspeakers in a room from about 500 hz and up..
http://www.ap.com/images/audio.tst/2010/07/pinnae.png
Believe it or not, This is how headphones have to measure in order to sound somewhat similar to flat measuring loudspeakers in a room from about 500 hz and up..
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With a stout driver like the Neo3 you can do a neat trick and use it both as the measurement speaker for your HRTFs and the playback device. Since it can reach down to 1kHz in a little horn (at moderate SPL) you can place the mic at 1 m or so, make a measurement in REW, and use that as a calibration curve for measuring your HRTFs. The combined response from the driver and mic are subtracted away.
You can also get a handle on your diffuse field EQ (with frontal bias) if you play a fairly omni speaker in front of you and use a wide gating window for the HRTF measurement. Reflections come from lots of directions then.
Hurray for free software!
You can also get a handle on your diffuse field EQ (with frontal bias) if you play a fairly omni speaker in front of you and use a wide gating window for the HRTF measurement. Reflections come from lots of directions then.
Hurray for free software!
I was surprised too.
As far as soldering the leads goes, I found that as long as you stick the capsule down on something (and the wires too), then the solder spots just need a quick dab and are not too bad. For wires I used an old earbud cord, but when my current mic breaks I'll use some sturdier wire (the enameled wire is annoying) that still lets the capsule fit in the ear.
For the ear part I cut earplugs in half and cut out a hole in the middle. That works well to hold the capsule inside. (or use replacement tips for IEMs).
Then for the powering of the capsule, I built a small battery box, but actually I think that it's unnecessary. In all likelihood your sound card will be able to give phantom power and these days I just leave the mic plugged in to my Xonar. When I feel like making a quick measure I don't have to worry about batteries or anything like that. SNR is good enough even at low volumes to tune headphones. You only need +- dB accuracy .
As far as soldering the leads goes, I found that as long as you stick the capsule down on something (and the wires too), then the solder spots just need a quick dab and are not too bad. For wires I used an old earbud cord, but when my current mic breaks I'll use some sturdier wire (the enameled wire is annoying) that still lets the capsule fit in the ear.
For the ear part I cut earplugs in half and cut out a hole in the middle. That works well to hold the capsule inside. (or use replacement tips for IEMs).
Then for the powering of the capsule, I built a small battery box, but actually I think that it's unnecessary. In all likelihood your sound card will be able to give phantom power and these days I just leave the mic plugged in to my Xonar. When I feel like making a quick measure I don't have to worry about batteries or anything like that. SNR is good enough even at low volumes to tune headphones. You only need +- dB accuracy .
Thank you for answering my questions before I had a chance to ask them.
David, this stuff is for you too. So pay attention..
I've been paying close attention indeed! Allow me to reply in order.
I like your idea about gluing hex nuts, that's a much less permanent idea than mine. I was considering drilling out the middle rivets and bolting an eye bolt to the frame. I received the monoprice headphones today and I'm pleased to discover the distance between the two mounting pegs on the headband is exactly perfectly matched by the distance between the two rivet holes. (By exactly perfectly I mean close enough that it would work effectively.) I'm not really initially concerned about such a drastic modification, for (as it has already been pointed out, I believe) grinding/cutting down the corners would be desirable as well. I wasn't able to slip the pads over the frame because of them, but I see from your pictures Rem you were able to. Is it a simple matter of force?
The Golden Ears app is a nice idea but no dice for me. I don't have a single Apple product to my name.
I love the direction of in-ear microphone testing and subsequent EQ, but I'm concerned I may not always be in a position to readily use an EQ. I'm also somewhat of a purest. Do either of you believe it would be possible to obtain the desired HRTF curve by permanent physical means? Aka chamber size, stuffing, etc? Granted, through the most amount of work...
David
I like your idea about gluing hex nuts, that's a much less permanent idea than mine. I was considering drilling out the middle rivets and bolting an eye bolt to the frame. I received the monoprice headphones today and I'm pleased to discover the distance between the two mounting pegs on the headband is exactly perfectly matched by the distance between the two rivet holes. (By exactly perfectly I mean close enough that it would work effectively.) I'm not really initially concerned about such a drastic modification, for (as it has already been pointed out, I believe) grinding/cutting down the corners would be desirable as well. I wasn't able to slip the pads over the frame because of them, but I see from your pictures Rem you were able to. Is it a simple matter of force?
The Golden Ears app is a nice idea but no dice for me. I don't have a single Apple product to my name.
I love the direction of in-ear microphone testing and subsequent EQ, but I'm concerned I may not always be in a position to readily use an EQ. I'm also somewhat of a purest. Do either of you believe it would be possible to obtain the desired HRTF curve by permanent physical means? Aka chamber size, stuffing, etc? Granted, through the most amount of work...
David
Hi David,
Based on my experience with the Fostex T50rp, I would say that you can get close with physical damping if you're measuring along the way. Like, mic in your ear, add some dampening, remeasure, etc. That driver measures more or less flat by itself. (as a tweeter). With closed ear pads and without rear damping it shots up 10 dB above neutral below 1 kHz, though. Damping the rear and adjusted the ear chamber you can tailor the response, though, and it sounds great.
As far as EQ goes, I trust the arithmetic of my computer. It is for sure more accurate than the diaphragm itself. As computers become faster, it becomes more and more viable!
Based on my experience with the Fostex T50rp, I would say that you can get close with physical damping if you're measuring along the way. Like, mic in your ear, add some dampening, remeasure, etc. That driver measures more or less flat by itself. (as a tweeter). With closed ear pads and without rear damping it shots up 10 dB above neutral below 1 kHz, though. Damping the rear and adjusted the ear chamber you can tailor the response, though, and it sounds great.
As far as EQ goes, I trust the arithmetic of my computer. It is for sure more accurate than the diaphragm itself. As computers become faster, it becomes more and more viable!
Yes, I did it by force because I did not want to physically alter the neo 3 unless I could get them to sound right. Studiotech is correct in assuming though, that the pad will eventually tear if you don't grind the corners down.
By using equalization in the testing process, you can at least generally see if you can get them to sound good to you. Being a tweeter not designed for headphone use, there could possibly be "tympanic" resonances in the vocal range that may be very difficult to overcome with tweaking. You would probably see the effect of this resonance in a typical CSD plot at around 700 hz. So essentially, using EQ at the beginning could at least tell you if the the project is worth pursuing further(achieving the desired response through purely "physical" means)
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An interesting experiment would be to place a neo 3 in a T50rp enclosure and see what happens. It sounds as if their tympanic resonances occur in the same region..
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David
Look at the grey frequency response trace for the hd800. This is how a good headphone should measure.. http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
You can also see how bad the "perceived" colored trace is compared to an accurate loudspeaker tweeter. A good, high resolution DSP based EQ used conservatively can actually be a good thing..
Look at the grey frequency response trace for the hd800. This is how a good headphone should measure.. http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
You can also see how bad the "perceived" colored trace is compared to an accurate loudspeaker tweeter. A good, high resolution DSP based EQ used conservatively can actually be a good thing..
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Hmmm. Okay, I follow. I rather like this approach now that I've given the last page and a half a solid second read through. I have an EMU 1212 soundcard so I'd be pretty confident with any measurements taken. I also have some nice mic preamps by behringer if needed. I'll buy the specified mic and have time to play with them by the end of the week.
David
David
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I've made a lot of progress in the physical tweaking area. I haven't done anything with the mini mics or EQs yet, but I found a good way to mount the headband and have been working on the best way to do the pads. I've found they sound best at an angle parallel with my ears (as apposed to parallel with the side of my head.) I'll post pictures relatively soon.
When I listen to music as I evaluate my tweaks I often say to myself "Okay, I'll try 'that' next, just after I get tired of listening"
I'll frequently be sitting there for another hour
They sound spectacular.
When I listen to music as I evaluate my tweaks I often say to myself "Okay, I'll try 'that' next, just after I get tired of listening"
I'll frequently be sitting there for another hour
They sound spectacular.
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