KEF with it's KM1 did this years ago (early 80's) with a low compromise 2 channel multi amped monitor and 30 IPS tape in front of 100 's of people in Chicago. I was there. Best direct radiator I've ever had the pleasure of "not" hearing.
Thanks.
First time I see it.
Yet I wonder if the playback was undistinguishable from live concert.
Joshua,
Recording and playback systems are capable of stunning levels of realism.
Two channel systems place constraints on perspective. Working withing those constraints yield fantastic results.
Case 1: Binaural recordings
With probe microphones placed at eardrums, playback with ear buds is extremely lifelike.
Employing HRTF data and head tracking equipment it is possible to turn head and have scene remain stationary to surroundings.
Other permutations exist too.
For loudspeaker playback a fixed seat perspective is easily achieved where listener may 'look' as locations of sounds, including much of recording venue reverberation. Classic limitation is that sounds of reverberation, and audience sounds are folded back into forward perspective, much as if simultaneously listening from stage and seat in audience.
The phantom image stage of direct sound is always behind the speaker plane.
With speakers with very wide uniform radiation, well recorded reverberation fills into room in proportion to liveliness of playback room.
With good recording, volume adjusted to with order of magnitude of live sound allows considerable leeway for listening levels that are fully engaging.
With my small two way reference mains and mono sub below 80Hz many recordings are like being at the event. I have archival recording of symphonies that I attended. Sound of squeaky lobby door opening and quietly thudding shut is heard in front instead of from behind; but sound of it's reverberating in hall moves side to side with same decay and character of sound in hall, both for this sound at back of hall and from further forward. With these speakers, I've often gotten comments from musicians listening to their recordings about hearing sounds that were present, but could not be heard when mixing in studio, or listening on other systems.
When these speakers are set 10-12 feet from front wall, 4-5 feet from sidewalls, and listening with rear wall about 8 feet behind, the sound stage spreads out behind plane of speakers and extends beyond front wall in depth for symphonic music. I can spin speakers around and aim them away from me and at front wall; sound stage remains perfectly defined, but starts from beyond front wall. This reveals directivity limitations inherent with all forward firing speakers.
In normal set up, moving more than 15-20 degrees off of center line causes timbre to roll off in high frequencies. This sound character radiates into other rooms of house in balanced fashion.
With highly omnidirectional speaker their is not front, back or side, and sound throughout room and rest of house behaves in very natural fashion. My omnidirectional speaker has very high power handling. It is easy to dial small acoustic groups to live level. The sound and feel of acoustic guitar, and male voice is stunningly accurate. The sense of presence is maintained throughout room and house.
Rock and Roll can be played loud enough to mostly bury sound of dogs barking in room, and do it without audible distortion. Throbbing of live venue rolls around in room. Wine glasses resonate, pictures rattle.
Up close acoustic piano, the level set live, floor pulses with heavy fall of dampers when pianist works the pedals hard.
Solo sax makes shirt vibrate like the real deal. Sensation of tingling on palms and of out stretched fingers is lifelike.
I could go on.......
Speaker harmonic distortion profile remains highly static across operating range. This can only be achieved with lots of driver surface area.
With compression drivers distortion content shifts through levels encountered in transients. Limited radiation pattern causes differences in room sound for the harmonic echoes imbedded into the sound. Sure, it is highly masked in sweet spot, but sound building in room is pumped in uneven fashion. The dynamic sensation is real, but gilded in harmonics not present in recording. This is most discernible with acoustic music. Well designed, well equalized horn system with good placement works very well, but is not the only way to get lifelike sound.
Recording and playback systems are capable of stunning levels of realism.
Two channel systems place constraints on perspective. Working withing those constraints yield fantastic results.
Case 1: Binaural recordings
With probe microphones placed at eardrums, playback with ear buds is extremely lifelike.
Employing HRTF data and head tracking equipment it is possible to turn head and have scene remain stationary to surroundings.
Other permutations exist too.
For loudspeaker playback a fixed seat perspective is easily achieved where listener may 'look' as locations of sounds, including much of recording venue reverberation. Classic limitation is that sounds of reverberation, and audience sounds are folded back into forward perspective, much as if simultaneously listening from stage and seat in audience.
The phantom image stage of direct sound is always behind the speaker plane.
With speakers with very wide uniform radiation, well recorded reverberation fills into room in proportion to liveliness of playback room.
With good recording, volume adjusted to with order of magnitude of live sound allows considerable leeway for listening levels that are fully engaging.
With my small two way reference mains and mono sub below 80Hz many recordings are like being at the event. I have archival recording of symphonies that I attended. Sound of squeaky lobby door opening and quietly thudding shut is heard in front instead of from behind; but sound of it's reverberating in hall moves side to side with same decay and character of sound in hall, both for this sound at back of hall and from further forward. With these speakers, I've often gotten comments from musicians listening to their recordings about hearing sounds that were present, but could not be heard when mixing in studio, or listening on other systems.
When these speakers are set 10-12 feet from front wall, 4-5 feet from sidewalls, and listening with rear wall about 8 feet behind, the sound stage spreads out behind plane of speakers and extends beyond front wall in depth for symphonic music. I can spin speakers around and aim them away from me and at front wall; sound stage remains perfectly defined, but starts from beyond front wall. This reveals directivity limitations inherent with all forward firing speakers.
In normal set up, moving more than 15-20 degrees off of center line causes timbre to roll off in high frequencies. This sound character radiates into other rooms of house in balanced fashion.
With highly omnidirectional speaker their is not front, back or side, and sound throughout room and rest of house behaves in very natural fashion. My omnidirectional speaker has very high power handling. It is easy to dial small acoustic groups to live level. The sound and feel of acoustic guitar, and male voice is stunningly accurate. The sense of presence is maintained throughout room and house.
Rock and Roll can be played loud enough to mostly bury sound of dogs barking in room, and do it without audible distortion. Throbbing of live venue rolls around in room. Wine glasses resonate, pictures rattle.
Up close acoustic piano, the level set live, floor pulses with heavy fall of dampers when pianist works the pedals hard.
Solo sax makes shirt vibrate like the real deal. Sensation of tingling on palms and of out stretched fingers is lifelike.
I could go on.......
Speaker harmonic distortion profile remains highly static across operating range. This can only be achieved with lots of driver surface area.
With compression drivers distortion content shifts through levels encountered in transients. Limited radiation pattern causes differences in room sound for the harmonic echoes imbedded into the sound. Sure, it is highly masked in sweet spot, but sound building in room is pumped in uneven fashion. The dynamic sensation is real, but gilded in harmonics not present in recording. This is most discernible with acoustic music. Well designed, well equalized horn system with good placement works very well, but is not the only way to get lifelike sound.
Joshua,
Picky, picky, picky! I agree that any trained listener can tell the difference between live acoustical music and a recording of that. But what of the huge amounts of music that has only been played live in the recording studio that unless you were in the actual room, not the control room, but the studio, you will never hear? I, after reading all your comments wonder why you would ever listen to a recording, you are a purist and will never be satisfied. So unless you have access to live music 24/7 that you can listen to, you my friend are out of luck.
Picky, picky, picky! I agree that any trained listener can tell the difference between live acoustical music and a recording of that. But what of the huge amounts of music that has only been played live in the recording studio that unless you were in the actual room, not the control room, but the studio, you will never hear? I, after reading all your comments wonder why you would ever listen to a recording, you are a purist and will never be satisfied. So unless you have access to live music 24/7 that you can listen to, you my friend are out of luck.
Barleywater,
Nice post there. I agree that there are some great systems out there that can reproduce most pop music and other amplified performances to the point of being indistinguishable from the actual performance. Steely Dan is one of those pop bands that never even play some of their music anywhere but in the studio. What you hear through a great sound system is what they intended you to hear. Two channel recording done just as that.
Nice post there. I agree that there are some great systems out there that can reproduce most pop music and other amplified performances to the point of being indistinguishable from the actual performance. Steely Dan is one of those pop bands that never even play some of their music anywhere but in the studio. What you hear through a great sound system is what they intended you to hear. Two channel recording done just as that.
Originally Posted by weltersys
And then posted simulations, rather than measurements, am I correct in assuming you have not measured the actual polar response of the horn (or woofer) you are using in the "Beyond the Ariel" prototype?
Bjørn,
Thank you for answering the directivity questions posed to Lynn regarding the horn he is using in his prototype speaker, the near field pressure simulations he posted previously were of no use (to me).
It is clear from your measurement that the AH425 varies smoothly (other than some waistbanding at 1000 Hz) in its -6dB dispersion from around 120 degrees at 500 Hz to 40 degrees at 10 kHz.
Using the AH425 would make for a high frequency variation of 6 dB across my couch, too much for my taste, but not terribly beamy.
Art
And then posted simulations, rather than measurements, am I correct in assuming you have not measured the actual polar response of the horn (or woofer) you are using in the "Beyond the Ariel" prototype?
Bjørn,
Thank you for answering the directivity questions posed to Lynn regarding the horn he is using in his prototype speaker, the near field pressure simulations he posted previously were of no use (to me).
It is clear from your measurement that the AH425 varies smoothly (other than some waistbanding at 1000 Hz) in its -6dB dispersion from around 120 degrees at 500 Hz to 40 degrees at 10 kHz.
Using the AH425 would make for a high frequency variation of 6 dB across my couch, too much for my taste, but not terribly beamy.
Art
Attachments
Earl,
I have to agree with you that so much information that is being traded here in this thread that is stated as fact is nothing but personal preferences. I do like reading what Lynn has to say but he also make many statements of fact that just don't hold water. His insistence on only tube amplification tell the story right there to me, it shows his bias and sound preferences.
I have to agree with you that so much information that is being traded here in this thread that is stated as fact is nothing but personal preferences. I do like reading what Lynn has to say but he also make many statements of fact that just don't hold water. His insistence on only tube amplification tell the story right there to me, it shows his bias and sound preferences.
I've been surprised by noise on recordings- "Huh? What was that?" not realizing it was the speakers (at first). Making a determination of whether instruments can be mimicked, is a little tougher as the reference isn't "The Boston Philharmonic in my living room", it's "The Boston Philharmonic at a venue 100s of times as big as my living room".
The "You are There" vs. "They are Here" is a huge perceptive issue, as is a listener consciously seeking to have their system quality validated- or disproven as a replacement. Doing a valid perceptual comparison is fraught with difficulty for such a trial. The variety of recording types and methods is another hurdle. Some recordings will match a given system better than others, despite high quality of both. MA Recordings sound terrific on some systems but are a too lush/ambient on my rig. If I were to disconnect the rearfiring section of the speakers, though, I bet they'd "come back to center".
Add in listener preferences and sensitivities, and one sees quickly how DIYers can enjoy so many different systems- beyond a reasonable level of system competence, much of what we perceive is a matter of finding those synergistic combinations of playback systems, listeners, and recordings, and it varies by all three dimensions.
The "You are There" vs. "They are Here" is a huge perceptive issue, as is a listener consciously seeking to have their system quality validated- or disproven as a replacement. Doing a valid perceptual comparison is fraught with difficulty for such a trial. The variety of recording types and methods is another hurdle. Some recordings will match a given system better than others, despite high quality of both. MA Recordings sound terrific on some systems but are a too lush/ambient on my rig. If I were to disconnect the rearfiring section of the speakers, though, I bet they'd "come back to center".
Add in listener preferences and sensitivities, and one sees quickly how DIYers can enjoy so many different systems- beyond a reasonable level of system competence, much of what we perceive is a matter of finding those synergistic combinations of playback systems, listeners, and recordings, and it varies by all three dimensions.
And yet, this introduces new distortions.
It introduces the distortions around the mannequin head, and the artificial additional ear canals.
There are different guys around. It is the diy old timers and professionals that seem to get the balance right most of the time. We all have our ideas tested or intuition etc. We tread carefully through the threads.
Stunning levels of realism is one thing.
Inability to reproduce 100% faithfully live performance is another thing.
Indeed.
Indeed, yet it doesn't contradict my statement.
I rarely listen to Rock and Roll and when I do, not at such loud levels.
Lifelike sound is one thing.
Inability to reproduce 100% faithfully live performance is another thing.
So far, I didn't see here (nor did I hear) my statement being contradicted.
My point of reference is live concerts of classical music, in a hall with superb acoustics, at an excellent seat (sound-wise).
I listen to reproduced music because of I'd like to listen to music every day, while concerts are about once a month (during the season).
I do enjoy listening to music at home, only I don't fool myself into thinking it sounds like the real thing.
I consider myself exceptionally lucky, in all venues of life.
I don't need to fool myself about anything in order to be completely satisfied with my life.
Loudspeakers: Brodmann VC2.
Power amp: Pas Labs XA30.5.
Preamp (with MC phono stage): Audible Illusions Modulus 3.
CD player: AMR CD-777.
TT: Nottingham Ace Space + Nottingham Ace Arm.
MC cartridge: ZYX R1000 Airy3 S.
Sometimes it's best to have a small musical system and forget about achieving something you feel is impossible. I recommend Joshua sell his big system and buy concert tickets - That or get yourself some good woodworking equipment, some measuring software, sound card and calibrated mic and let the sawdust fly. Buying into anybody else's "solution" like this Beyond the ??? is normally dead end and doesn't give you anywhere near the satisfaction of building it yourself. The first step is defining what you feel is possible
then...
It is here:
Live-vs.-Recorded Demonstrations
Properly set up, loudspeakers can convincingly mimic live performances.
To properly mimic an orchestra would require many individual tracks and multiple loudspeakers, but for single instruments the demands are much more easily met.
At any rate, the design goal of accurate reproduction of a recorded signal and reproduction of a live performance are, as you point out, different things.
What is the best system you have ever listened to?
I have used the Audible Illusions Modulus IIC. I used it to compare against some of my early attempts on preamplifiers in the early 80s. Different tubes will make them sound different. With the right tubes they are very revealing and provide good ambient preproduction of the recorded scene.
Just checked the Brodmann VC2, those are of quite a different characteristic from live performance. Most likely lacking in detail. From the setup, I would guess it will sound very nice in terms of string instruments, but quite far from the fidelity I am used to.
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Mannequin head? Skip that. Reference at own eardrum with forward located source, which itself has been free field referenced. Then also reference for headphones from eardrums. Transfer functions for translating from ear recordings to forward field recordings are then straight forward correlation functions.
David Griesinger goes into detail: "Binaural Hearing, Ear Canals, and Headphones".
He also describes results in ability to distinuish between recordings made from different seats in same venue when recordings have transfer functions applied for playback over stereo speakers.
Recording with properly reference arrays of microphones makes specific renderings possible.
It only requires eight channels of information to totally reconstruct wavefront passing through small region of space.
This is principle for Soundfield microphones with three figure of eight pattern microphones for three basis axis and an omnidirectional microphone for secondary reference to each basis axis.
Eigenmike is 32 element spherical microphone array that is highly steerable.
See youtube demo.
Use of such technology allows post production mixing of surround sound, two channel stereo, and binaural renderings from same source.
The math is similar for imaging system, and stationary array radar/radio for tracking junk in space, stars, and targets on the ground.
It is the understanding of information theory behind this that leads to excellence in recording. Understanding by practice is classic route for most recording engineers. Results are mixed.
Indeed, this is what I do.
This is a no go for me, because of I'd like to listen to music every day, while concerts are about once a month, in the season.
Also, when I listen to music at home, I listen to the music, not to the sound of the setup. Therefore, the inability of the setup to reproduce live concerts with 100% fidelity doesn't bother me. The music is there, in whatever degree of realism it's being reproduced.
For one, it looks like at the age of 70, it may be too late for me to start designing loudspeaker. By the time I may master some elementary skills, my hearing may be off.
Second, I don't have the finances to buy many different drivers, in the process of learning.
I do enjoy listening to music with what I have already.