Cap test
Well lhere is my first attempt at a cap shoot-out.
I expect the ranking to change with further tests, and maybe with "burn in", if there really is such a thing. So take this post with a grain of salt.
It was surprising that they sounded as different as they did. In this use they never see more than 2V RMS signal and the bias is only 2.5V DC. Not much of a strain for these big boys. In a crossover with much more power, a differnce might not be surprising.
Tested one Blackgate electrolytic and 5 film caps. The Blackgate was better than one of the film caps, the Sonicap. None of them were awful, of course, but I don't think I'd ever use the Sonicap again.
My ranking on first listening would be:
Obligatto film/foil
AudioCap Theta film/foil
Obligatto paper in oil
Panasonic metalized film
Blackgate N series electrolytic
Sonicap metalized film.
The big oil cap would get top honors if I could believe my ears. It sounds soooo lush, so full, so round. A true pleasure to listen to. But I suspect it is not very neutral, that it's adding its own special sauce in the low mids. But if I needed a cap for the mids only, that would be it.
Pure magic on male voice and alto sax. On "Take Five" (a track I've known since I was an infant) Desmond is really there. As I played Alto Sax for many years, the feel and taste the saxophone reed and mouthpiece came rushing back. Strange.... Felt like I was playing, not listening.
The film/foil Obligatto is similar in sound to the oil cap, just not so full in the lower mids. Seems to have more high end.
The AudioCap Theta is very neutral sounding, though a tiny bit dry compared to the Obligattos. Maybe it is just uncolored. Smooth, too.
Panasonic industrial grade metalized foil sound nice and smooth, I've been using them in my amps for awhile. Not a bad choice. Maybe a little lacking in space and ambiance. No obvious faults.
Blackgate does OK, but I can tell it leaks as there is a nasty pop every time it's switched into the circuit. Just not as engaging as the other caps. Top end sounds a bit sour. Can't beat the size! Does well for its price and size.
Sonicaps are said by some to sound harsh, too bright. I didn't really find that, but it is just flat. I don't mean linear, but flat, lifeless, a little rough. Not a lot of life in the music. Top end similar to the Blackgate. It is the least expensive of the film caps.
Alas, I don't know what just a straight wire sounds like here, as a DC blocking cap must be used. Maybe the next test should be done with my DC coupled headphone amp. That way it should be easy to hear which cap colors the sound the least. But if it must color, the Obligattos sure do a nice job.
I also have some other style Blackgates and Jantzen film caps. May give them a listen, too.
Well lhere is my first attempt at a cap shoot-out.
I expect the ranking to change with further tests, and maybe with "burn in", if there really is such a thing. So take this post with a grain of salt.
It was surprising that they sounded as different as they did. In this use they never see more than 2V RMS signal and the bias is only 2.5V DC. Not much of a strain for these big boys. In a crossover with much more power, a differnce might not be surprising.
Tested one Blackgate electrolytic and 5 film caps. The Blackgate was better than one of the film caps, the Sonicap. None of them were awful, of course, but I don't think I'd ever use the Sonicap again.
My ranking on first listening would be:
Obligatto film/foil
AudioCap Theta film/foil
Obligatto paper in oil
Panasonic metalized film
Blackgate N series electrolytic
Sonicap metalized film.
The big oil cap would get top honors if I could believe my ears. It sounds soooo lush, so full, so round. A true pleasure to listen to. But I suspect it is not very neutral, that it's adding its own special sauce in the low mids. But if I needed a cap for the mids only, that would be it.
Pure magic on male voice and alto sax. On "Take Five" (a track I've known since I was an infant) Desmond is really there. As I played Alto Sax for many years, the feel and taste the saxophone reed and mouthpiece came rushing back. Strange.... Felt like I was playing, not listening.
The film/foil Obligatto is similar in sound to the oil cap, just not so full in the lower mids. Seems to have more high end.
The AudioCap Theta is very neutral sounding, though a tiny bit dry compared to the Obligattos. Maybe it is just uncolored. Smooth, too.
Panasonic industrial grade metalized foil sound nice and smooth, I've been using them in my amps for awhile. Not a bad choice. Maybe a little lacking in space and ambiance. No obvious faults.
Blackgate does OK, but I can tell it leaks as there is a nasty pop every time it's switched into the circuit. Just not as engaging as the other caps. Top end sounds a bit sour. Can't beat the size! Does well for its price and size.
Sonicaps are said by some to sound harsh, too bright. I didn't really find that, but it is just flat. I don't mean linear, but flat, lifeless, a little rough. Not a lot of life in the music. Top end similar to the Blackgate. It is the least expensive of the film caps.
Alas, I don't know what just a straight wire sounds like here, as a DC blocking cap must be used. Maybe the next test should be done with my DC coupled headphone amp. That way it should be easy to hear which cap colors the sound the least. But if it must color, the Obligattos sure do a nice job.
I also have some other style Blackgates and Jantzen film caps. May give them a listen, too.
Thanks for the test Pano. Always helpful to have impressions of persons performing these experiments.
I'm not surprised you heard differences between the caps. I find capacitors to be among the worst offenders in audio and have experienced of the order of obviously audible gains swapping capacitors in a circuit, even in places a few steps removed from such critical functions as signal coupling. For instance, I recently placed a few teflon varieties in an Elgar line conditioner I used; the result, immediately obvious to me, was cleaner sound through the audio system it powered.
Can I ask, were all the capacitors burned-in to some similar degree? Just to relay one experience I have on this subject, I recently replaced certain 2uF coupling capacitors in an Elgar line conditioner with well-made PIO types (Chris Venhaus'). After this change, the conditioner outputted a nasty spike on the output AC waveform --- from memory of looking aghast at the scope, the spike was at least 7 V p-p. Over two days of burn-in, the spike settled down and eventually disappeared. Not to leave things to wondering, I performed the same experiment on a second Elgar with the same results: nasty spike that eventually disappeared.
This was but a visual confirmation of what my ears have long told me, that capacitors (probably their dielectrics) require electrical contact, if you will, to perform their best.
I'm also not surprised your metallized varieties fell to the bottom of the heap. Metallized designs seem to do at least three things worse than foil designs: they seem to me more susceptible to internal vibration (capacitors act like poor quality condenser microphones), they eliminate residual air pockets between layers thus increasing overall dielectric constant and dielectric absorption, and their plates introduce non-linear distortions.
I have some older (including Russian) teflon varieties I'd be happy to send you for a bypass test if you'd like. Send me a pm if interested.
I'm not surprised you heard differences between the caps. I find capacitors to be among the worst offenders in audio and have experienced of the order of obviously audible gains swapping capacitors in a circuit, even in places a few steps removed from such critical functions as signal coupling. For instance, I recently placed a few teflon varieties in an Elgar line conditioner I used; the result, immediately obvious to me, was cleaner sound through the audio system it powered.
Can I ask, were all the capacitors burned-in to some similar degree? Just to relay one experience I have on this subject, I recently replaced certain 2uF coupling capacitors in an Elgar line conditioner with well-made PIO types (Chris Venhaus'). After this change, the conditioner outputted a nasty spike on the output AC waveform --- from memory of looking aghast at the scope, the spike was at least 7 V p-p. Over two days of burn-in, the spike settled down and eventually disappeared. Not to leave things to wondering, I performed the same experiment on a second Elgar with the same results: nasty spike that eventually disappeared.
This was but a visual confirmation of what my ears have long told me, that capacitors (probably their dielectrics) require electrical contact, if you will, to perform their best.
I'm also not surprised your metallized varieties fell to the bottom of the heap. Metallized designs seem to do at least three things worse than foil designs: they seem to me more susceptible to internal vibration (capacitors act like poor quality condenser microphones), they eliminate residual air pockets between layers thus increasing overall dielectric constant and dielectric absorption, and their plates introduce non-linear distortions.
I have some older (including Russian) teflon varieties I'd be happy to send you for a bypass test if you'd like. Send me a pm if interested.
It's been a while since I've played with caps, but my favorite input caps so far are 2.2uF 200V Auricaps and some old 1.0uF 100V Sprague PIOs. I parallel two 1.0uF Spragues on each channel. These Spragues give slightly smoother highs without losing the bass quality of the Auricaps. I do think the Auricaps are more honest, but the t-amp can sound a bit strident on some recordings with my speakers.
Also, I've tried a newer 2.0 Sprague PIO that deminished the bass fullness and had a similar experience with an old Dubilier 2.0uF PIO (even more bass loss).
I have some Obbligato film/foil and oil caps coming as well as some Jupiters to try for grins. It's good to see that the Obbligatos did well, maybe no money wasted there this time.
Also, I've tried a newer 2.0 Sprague PIO that deminished the bass fullness and had a similar experience with an old Dubilier 2.0uF PIO (even more bass loss).
I have some Obbligato film/foil and oil caps coming as well as some Jupiters to try for grins. It's good to see that the Obbligatos did well, maybe no money wasted there this time.
To answer some questions:
All the caps in this test were fresh, never used before - except the Sonicaps which had about 50 hours on them.
After some more listening last night, I'm starting to like the Obligatto film/foil more and more. It's the cap I want to listen to. Just an emotional thing, a feeling, but I think that is important.
I've used the Auricap in some of my amps, but don't have any to test right now.
I really wanted the AudioCap Theta to come out on top, as it has been my favorite so far of all I've tried. Still like the AudioCaps very much, just like the Obligattos better.
We'll see what happens with break in.
Serengetiplains - interesting story about the PIO and voltage spike. You could actually measure the break in.
The theory of "break-in" bothers me a bit for passive components. Why do they always improve? Just because we want them to? Shouldn't they get worse sometimes?
(no doubts about mechanical break in)
Time will tell. I don't know that I'll be able to break -in this current crop for 200 hours or whatever it takes. Need to get some of them shipped out.
The distressing thing about this test is just how much the caps DO color the sound. I've known this for over 20 years, but to do an A/B/C/D/etc. Test is new to me.
No wonder my Audiophile teachers in Paris were so found of direct signal coupling. No wonder their results were so good.
Further listening needed.
All the caps in this test were fresh, never used before - except the Sonicaps which had about 50 hours on them.
After some more listening last night, I'm starting to like the Obligatto film/foil more and more. It's the cap I want to listen to. Just an emotional thing, a feeling, but I think that is important.
I've used the Auricap in some of my amps, but don't have any to test right now.
I really wanted the AudioCap Theta to come out on top, as it has been my favorite so far of all I've tried. Still like the AudioCaps very much, just like the Obligattos better.
We'll see what happens with break in.
Serengetiplains - interesting story about the PIO and voltage spike. You could actually measure the break in.
The theory of "break-in" bothers me a bit for passive components. Why do they always improve? Just because we want them to? Shouldn't they get worse sometimes?
(no doubts about mechanical break in)Time will tell. I don't know that I'll be able to break -in this current crop for 200 hours or whatever it takes. Need to get some of them shipped out.
The distressing thing about this test is just how much the caps DO color the sound. I've known this for over 20 years, but to do an A/B/C/D/etc. Test is new to me.
No wonder my Audiophile teachers in Paris were so found of direct signal coupling. No wonder their results were so good.
Further listening needed.
Nice review on the capacitors. I have tried sonicaps, kimber kaps, and obbligatos so far and prefer the obbligatos. I haven't listen to the aluminum ones yet. Which one of the obbligatos do you prefer between the pio and film/foil? I should be getting russian pio caps soon to compare to the obbligatos.
HolyGhostFire20 said:
I like the film/foil. They seem more balanced than the PIO. Still, the PIO has such a rich sound. For Blues, Jazz, male vocal, they sound great. It may depend on your system. A little "Oil" could help a lot of thin audiophile systems I've heard. The PIOs seems to have what a lot of folks think of as a "tube (valve) sound".
For me all that rich sound seems to obscure the rest of the music a little bit.
So:
Overall I would choose the Obbligato film/foil. Very clean from bottom to top, smooth, rich, lots of the recording space ambiance comes thru.
You won't be disappointed in the Obbligato film/foil. Great price too! Kind of large, but not nearly as large as those big oil cans.
Further listening may change my mind, but at the moment that is were it stands.(valve)
PIO caps
My best guess regarding the sound of PIO caps---which seem almost universally to elicit descriptions like "lush" on listener reports---is that the oil component damps vibrations, incoming and internally generated, reducing microphony in the cap, which is good. But PIO caps suffer from (sometimes significantly) higher dielectric absorption. If DA is the main factor, as it seems to me it is, distinguishing one capacitor's performance from another's, all other things, of course, being equal, a small increase in DA will be offset only by some multiple of bettered performance in some other regard. DA does seem to be sufficiently important that other factors, like microphony, cannot compensate for even a small DA increase (+0.2 or thereabouts).
Pano, your question regarding why capacitors sound better, not worse, after breaking in perhaps echoes the question why capacitors with lower DA sound better than capacitors with higher. The answer is perhaps that DA and (goofy dielectric [electret] effects eliminated by break-in?) are non-capacitive in nature, or in other words render a capacitor less like an ideal capacitor. I think Frank DeGrove put it best in once asking rhetorically if best sound is not attained when all components function closer than not to ideal resistors/capacitors/inductors. Sure rings a bell with me.
Yes, I saw clear evidence of capacitor break-in on my scope. Should have taken a picture, I suppose.
My best guess regarding the sound of PIO caps---which seem almost universally to elicit descriptions like "lush" on listener reports---is that the oil component damps vibrations, incoming and internally generated, reducing microphony in the cap, which is good. But PIO caps suffer from (sometimes significantly) higher dielectric absorption. If DA is the main factor, as it seems to me it is, distinguishing one capacitor's performance from another's, all other things, of course, being equal, a small increase in DA will be offset only by some multiple of bettered performance in some other regard. DA does seem to be sufficiently important that other factors, like microphony, cannot compensate for even a small DA increase (+0.2 or thereabouts).
Pano, your question regarding why capacitors sound better, not worse, after breaking in perhaps echoes the question why capacitors with lower DA sound better than capacitors with higher. The answer is perhaps that DA and (goofy dielectric [electret] effects eliminated by break-in?) are non-capacitive in nature, or in other words render a capacitor less like an ideal capacitor. I think Frank DeGrove put it best in once asking rhetorically if best sound is not attained when all components function closer than not to ideal resistors/capacitors/inductors. Sure rings a bell with me.
Yes, I saw clear evidence of capacitor break-in on my scope. Should have taken a picture, I suppose.
jmartins said:
Wima's seem to me to be decent caps. The MKPs are metallised polypropylenes. Polypropylene is a good dielectric, but not as good, IMO, as polystyrene or teflon. I also prefer foil build over metallised; the latter add a measurable amount of distortion over the former given non-linear resistivities in the plate structure. The Wima caps also have inferior lead connections to the plates. All in all probably a better cap than any Mylar cap, though.
After auditioning the Auricaps and the Sonicaps for a few days each now I feel I can give a decent opinion of both caps.
Bottom line: I like the Auricaps better. Keep in mind that I really, really wanted to like the Sonicaps better because they cost less... I'm cheap, so what?
Don't get me wrong, the Sonicaps sound good but not quite as pleasing to my ears as the Auricaps. Listening to a lot of different material helps to notice the main differences. I found that the Sonicaps seem to exaggerate the treble, making it a little too bright for my taste with just the slightest hint of fatiguing after an hour or so of listening. It's particularly noticable with cymbals and guitar. Cymbals sound a bit too in your face and too much attention is drawn to the movement of a guitarist's fingers over the strings and the sharp plucking noises with a pick. Some would call this detail, but I don't like it when it takes my focus off the rest of the music. The midrange and vocals, on the other hand, sound a little flatter. That may be partly because the treble sounds exaggerated, but it just sounds slightly less involving overall. The bass is nice though. Drums can sound a bit dry on some recordings.
The Auricaps have a smoother top end, a more laid back midrange, and have good bass as well. Then again they should for how much they cost... Guitar sounds quite nice, cymbals are crisp but not bright, midrange and vocals aren't overly involving, drums don't sound too thin, and everything is just pleasing to listen to with no fatiguing even after listening for a few hours.
My listening tests were done in the nearfield with full range 8ohm 89dB FE103E's in small open baffles on my desk and Definitive ProMonitor 100's - 8ohm 90dB 2 way with 1" aluminum dome tweeter and 5.25" poly cone midrange. Amps were AMP3's with 14.1V regulated supply.
It may also be worth noting that the Auricaps I got were previously used so they were definitely "broken-in" while the Sonicaps I purchased were brand new and have seen around 50-60hrs of playing time.
Bottom line: I like the Auricaps better. Keep in mind that I really, really wanted to like the Sonicaps better because they cost less... I'm cheap, so what?
Don't get me wrong, the Sonicaps sound good but not quite as pleasing to my ears as the Auricaps. Listening to a lot of different material helps to notice the main differences. I found that the Sonicaps seem to exaggerate the treble, making it a little too bright for my taste with just the slightest hint of fatiguing after an hour or so of listening. It's particularly noticable with cymbals and guitar. Cymbals sound a bit too in your face and too much attention is drawn to the movement of a guitarist's fingers over the strings and the sharp plucking noises with a pick. Some would call this detail, but I don't like it when it takes my focus off the rest of the music. The midrange and vocals, on the other hand, sound a little flatter. That may be partly because the treble sounds exaggerated, but it just sounds slightly less involving overall. The bass is nice though. Drums can sound a bit dry on some recordings.
The Auricaps have a smoother top end, a more laid back midrange, and have good bass as well. Then again they should for how much they cost... Guitar sounds quite nice, cymbals are crisp but not bright, midrange and vocals aren't overly involving, drums don't sound too thin, and everything is just pleasing to listen to with no fatiguing even after listening for a few hours.
My listening tests were done in the nearfield with full range 8ohm 89dB FE103E's in small open baffles on my desk and Definitive ProMonitor 100's - 8ohm 90dB 2 way with 1" aluminum dome tweeter and 5.25" poly cone midrange. Amps were AMP3's with 14.1V regulated supply.
It may also be worth noting that the Auricaps I got were previously used so they were definitely "broken-in" while the Sonicaps I purchased were brand new and have seen around 50-60hrs of playing time.
Cool Brian, thanks for that!
I didn't get a chance to listen to the Auricap in an A/B test, but liked what I heard alone.
Too bad about the Sonicap, but it is hard to listen to for a long time. Must be some distortion there. When I bought my Sonicaps they were sold with a smaller 0.1uF Sonicap for bypass. I didn't listen to the bypass; wonder if it would make a difference?
These tests are fun! Seems that we are getting similar results, too. That's encouraging.
I didn't get a chance to listen to the Auricap in an A/B test, but liked what I heard alone.
Too bad about the Sonicap, but it is hard to listen to for a long time. Must be some distortion there. When I bought my Sonicaps they were sold with a smaller 0.1uF Sonicap for bypass. I didn't listen to the bypass; wonder if it would make a difference?
These tests are fun! Seems that we are getting similar results, too. That's encouraging.
No problem. Thanks for your listening impressions as well, Michael - and everyone else of course! Combined, we all have a pretty good sampling of caps so far. That's bound to help someone make a decent upgrade choice without having to spend a ton to figure out what they like they best. Although that can be quite fun if you have the time and money to burn.
I am a bit bummed about the Sonicaps. Maybe they'll even out a bit after more playing time. The Auricaps were previously used in a crossover so they had speaker level voltages and currents applied to them as opposed to just line level for the Sonicaps. A small, quality bypass cap certainly has the potential to help in the upper frequencies. That would be something to test out but I don't feel like spending anymore on caps after dropping $50 for these 4 caps already! I could have had an AMP6, 2 AMP3's, or a bunch of really nice op amps for about that much (told you I was cheap ).
It is encouraging that there's some correlation between our results and that we're having a bit of fun too.
I am a bit bummed about the Sonicaps. Maybe they'll even out a bit after more playing time. The Auricaps were previously used in a crossover so they had speaker level voltages and currents applied to them as opposed to just line level for the Sonicaps. A small, quality bypass cap certainly has the potential to help in the upper frequencies. That would be something to test out but I don't feel like spending anymore on caps after dropping $50 for these 4 caps already! I could have had an AMP6, 2 AMP3's, or a bunch of really nice op amps for about that much (told you I was cheap
).It is encouraging that there's some correlation between our results and that we're having a bit of fun too.
Brian, hang in there with the Sonicaps to give them more time. I've read good reports on these caps, and I see no reason why they shouldn't perform well. 50 hours might be short of what these caps require to break in. I know my own experience, for instance, with Chris Venhaus oil caps suggests some caps need of the order of a couple hundred hours.
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