Sound quality is probably the one you really don't need to sacrifice if you're motivated enough though. Since it's a personal one off build it could be worth scouting out for a really premium quality used PA driver. If you can find someone selling just 1x 12" bass driver, and that happens often enough, you can get a serious bargain because almost everyone wants to buy a pair.
Yeah that's another thing i'm ''worried'' about:
a single woofer? Up to 200hz or even more?
Sitting on it ?
Anything lower than 100-120hz, ok no problem, but at some point it will start to be a problem, IMO
15FH500 looks excellent!
I spent ages drooling over the 18FH500 for larger portable designs, and it seems to share many of the same characteristics.
It can almost match the frequency response I described of the P Audio driver in a slightly bigger box (70 litres internal), but with none of the excursion issues. 9.25mm from a 15" cone will be a seriously satisfactory amount of thump. It's expensive though, and won't actually be any louder than the P Audio. 123dB peak with 500w input. It'll have significantly more impact though.
The reason I recommend looking for a used driver (a premium quality neodymium driver - both the ones discussed so far have been entry level) is that there are loads of options out there which are a dB or two more efficient, and can take 1500 Watt input without maxing their excursion. Effectively that extra 6dB is like having two subs instead of one and amp power is cheap as chips these days, so it's a sound economic decision to buy one really high power driver, even if it means lugging an extra couple of kg and scouting for a bargain.
I spent ages drooling over the 18FH500 for larger portable designs, and it seems to share many of the same characteristics.
It can almost match the frequency response I described of the P Audio driver in a slightly bigger box (70 litres internal), but with none of the excursion issues. 9.25mm from a 15" cone will be a seriously satisfactory amount of thump. It's expensive though, and won't actually be any louder than the P Audio. 123dB peak with 500w input. It'll have significantly more impact though.
The reason I recommend looking for a used driver (a premium quality neodymium driver - both the ones discussed so far have been entry level) is that there are loads of options out there which are a dB or two more efficient, and can take 1500 Watt input without maxing their excursion. Effectively that extra 6dB is like having two subs instead of one and amp power is cheap as chips these days, so it's a sound economic decision to buy one really high power driver, even if it means lugging an extra couple of kg and scouting for a bargain.
I thought I might have been imagining these +6dB drivers for a moment but they definitely exist, just seriously pricey.
PD.155N01 - Bass Driver
130.5dB with a 2000w amp and within excursion limits down to 48Hz in a 70 litre box. Heavy at 9.5kg and expensive at $391, but the Faital you linked to is $290 at Parts Express, and the PD is in a whole other dimension to the Faital in every regard.
I feel we're probably talking considerably out of the OP's price range in either case, but imo if you're going to spend $300 on a bass driver, plus all the other hassle and costs of the project, you really may as well spend $400 on the equivalent of two drivers (or more like 2.3x) in the same size enclosure, or as suggested look for something of similar quality on the used market if on a budget.
PD.155N01 - Bass Driver
130.5dB with a 2000w amp and within excursion limits down to 48Hz in a 70 litre box. Heavy at 9.5kg and expensive at $391, but the Faital you linked to is $290 at Parts Express, and the PD is in a whole other dimension to the Faital in every regard.
I feel we're probably talking considerably out of the OP's price range in either case, but imo if you're going to spend $300 on a bass driver, plus all the other hassle and costs of the project, you really may as well spend $400 on the equivalent of two drivers (or more like 2.3x) in the same size enclosure, or as suggested look for something of similar quality on the used market if on a budget.
What I figure too. I have an idea, but if I say more Earl Geddes will tell me gleefully "you just blew the patent" 😉😉😉😉😉😉
Well that's a matter of opinion. I meant those two models compared with one another, but generally speaking I would say PD as a whole.
Of course there are some Faital drivers that are better than some PD drivers for certain applications, and some that are just better period, but Faital have a lot more budget models, and PD just don't really sell budget drivers. They have some of the most extensive OEM experience for high efficiency PA drivers dating back from Turbosound in the 1970's.
Their drivers are generally significantly heavier than the alternatives (did you ever see a neo 15" that weighed 9.5kg?), and that's not frivolous extras, you can see approximately where it's going from the specs and the pictures: things like oversized magnets, oversized voice coils, heavy duty frames, etc.
And the sims don't lie (well, obviously they do, but they at least don't fail to give you a rough idea about substantial differences in performance), they literally model a couple of dB more efficient and with extra power and excursion capacity. It's more common to have one or the other, less common to have both.
As an example I modelled Faital Pro's top of the line 15" woofer, the 7.1kg 15hp1060 FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15HP1060 ($441 on Partsexpress) in the same 70 litre box
Grey line is the 15FH500, red is the 15HP1060, blue is the PD. The Faital claims 12.45mm excursion versus 10.5 with the PD, but given Faital's specs are somewhat more optimistic than PD's the difference in reality is likely very minor. So you could maybe turn it up another 1dB or so, but you certainly won't bridge the 2.6dB gap in the upper-bass and lower midrange.
You might suggest it's apples and oranges, different drivers for different applications and to an extent it's true, but it's not just a technical distinction. They have a strong portfolio of leading brands who rely on them for OEM, and the co-developed drivers for a lot of legendary designs over the years. The collective experience and expertise in the company must be phenomenal. I'm not saying the same isn't true to an extent of Faital, just not to the same extent.
Of course there are some Faital drivers that are better than some PD drivers for certain applications, and some that are just better period, but Faital have a lot more budget models, and PD just don't really sell budget drivers. They have some of the most extensive OEM experience for high efficiency PA drivers dating back from Turbosound in the 1970's.
Their drivers are generally significantly heavier than the alternatives (did you ever see a neo 15" that weighed 9.5kg?), and that's not frivolous extras, you can see approximately where it's going from the specs and the pictures: things like oversized magnets, oversized voice coils, heavy duty frames, etc.
And the sims don't lie (well, obviously they do, but they at least don't fail to give you a rough idea about substantial differences in performance), they literally model a couple of dB more efficient and with extra power and excursion capacity. It's more common to have one or the other, less common to have both.
As an example I modelled Faital Pro's top of the line 15" woofer, the 7.1kg 15hp1060 FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15HP1060 ($441 on Partsexpress) in the same 70 litre box
Grey line is the 15FH500, red is the 15HP1060, blue is the PD. The Faital claims 12.45mm excursion versus 10.5 with the PD, but given Faital's specs are somewhat more optimistic than PD's the difference in reality is likely very minor. So you could maybe turn it up another 1dB or so, but you certainly won't bridge the 2.6dB gap in the upper-bass and lower midrange.
You might suggest it's apples and oranges, different drivers for different applications and to an extent it's true, but it's not just a technical distinction. They have a strong portfolio of leading brands who rely on them for OEM, and the co-developed drivers for a lot of legendary designs over the years. The collective experience and expertise in the company must be phenomenal. I'm not saying the same isn't true to an extent of Faital, just not to the same extent.
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Done tried it, worked great. Low enough at 200 that directionally was not an issue. Thanks everyone for driver suggestions. I do have a 400 neo Beyma 12😄. What I would like to solve is the amp and dsp issue.
Exactly what I was thinking, and essentially what I tested as it was taped together Styrofoam cups, leaky and resonate.
Still worked well with my duo, though not the trio at end of the night. In the final product, I can try to leave the cap unsealed on my PVC conduit couplers, there is an air gap.
You guys are obsessing on the woofer issue. Bear in mind I have been running this band successfully with *1* thats right I said 1 Mackie SRM 450 playing all bass and kick drum vocals keys , everything for around 10 years. It has enough low end, I doubt O need much below about 55 hz and I sat on it (The 12+horn Mackie) and used it for the low end crossed at roughly 200 hz with noted success. It did not crap out, especially on the floor. It has always been behind us on a stand, now it was coupled to the floor, a huge gain I would guess.
I dont think I will have any trouble with a lightweight dedicated "sub" as long as I can get 200 or so projected. Bear in mind that Klipsch uses folded woofers successful y, I need nowhere near the gain or nowhere near 400-500 hz from it, I would imagine I could get away with 60 to 250 easily. That band should be easy to get out of the B&C hpl76 I have laying around here huh?
What about a class D high power 2 channel amp module with crossover/dsp? (Athough I loath adding adda)
Anything analog out there with xover and eq in a plar or module? Or am I stuck with adda, I have always entered my DCX units via spdif, hate going through the Adda, the da is fine though.
Anything analog out there with xover and eq in a plar or module? Or am I stuck with adda, I have always entered my DCX units via spdif, hate going through the Adda, the da is fine though.
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yep all I can stomach is one conversion in the DCX2496, and I have cap bypassed a bunch of op amps. Sounds ok now, but all the way through it? Hope not.
I may just do what I did in my proto and create one with EQ, did not sound bad, I'd like better than 6db 1st order though, a 12db or better range on the sliders ought to do it. Seems odd to make a xover this way but why not? It did work. Should be fine as long as I have makeup and cut gain, or be very careful.
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Something like this?
Loads of options for it with a bit of creative thinking!
For example if you design the bass enclosure to play sitting on it's longest side and facing forwards when in use, with the longest dimension on the same axis as the port, you could design the port to have the same diameter and shape as the column, then plug it in during transport.
Neodymium disc magnets are really cheap so you could router a whole bunch of them into the top panel of the column (so that they're flush with the surface, directly under the paint layer) and stick a chunk of steel at the far inside end of the sub. That'd hold it in place with more than enough force to need a handle at the other end of the column to pull it out.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Loads of options for it with a bit of creative thinking!
For example if you design the bass enclosure to play sitting on it's longest side and facing forwards when in use, with the longest dimension on the same axis as the port, you could design the port to have the same diameter and shape as the column, then plug it in during transport.
Neodymium disc magnets are really cheap so you could router a whole bunch of them into the top panel of the column (so that they're flush with the surface, directly under the paint layer) and stick a chunk of steel at the far inside end of the sub. That'd hold it in place with more than enough force to need a handle at the other end of the column to pull it out.
Another update, while waiting for my Faital driver to arrive from PE I decided to do an emperical test, so I rigged up one which allows me to vary the internal volume from very little about 1/4 liter to about 2 liters while playing. The result was (at least with my currenr "test" drivers) that the most balanced sound albeit with very little below around 150, came with an enclosure of very little volume and somewhat leaky!
This is actually good news as I am going for portability anyway. Laws of physics being what they are, I do not expect the Faital drivers to be much different. I have a really cool system worked out that allows me to just about quickly make any relevant enclosure for these small drivers.
Kudos to those of you who predicted the low mid problem, I think that was actually solved by making the box too small.
Also as you guys have predicted, the sub system is apparently going to be the next "fun" issue too work out. Still looking for high power 2 channel lightweight amp with dsp for EQ and cross over. Again thanks for your continuing help!
This is actually good news as I am going for portability anyway. Laws of physics being what they are, I do not expect the Faital drivers to be much different. I have a really cool system worked out that allows me to just about quickly make any relevant enclosure for these small drivers.
Kudos to those of you who predicted the low mid problem, I think that was actually solved by making the box too small.
Also as you guys have predicted, the sub system is apparently going to be the next "fun" issue too work out. Still looking for high power 2 channel lightweight amp with dsp for EQ and cross over. Again thanks for your continuing help!
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