Yes I can temporarly fix my laptop... How long will it last? Who knows? The fan inside of it is dead. It smells like fire crackers when charging. I will open it up and see how it looks inside I suppse....
The monitor was suppose to have a ground, all VGA plugs do, but these are DC "signal ground" or what ever, the negative. This "ground" has zero connection to the ground that plugs into the wall.
_
_\______####________
_/...................................\_
(periods are just for space)
I hope that picture works... The AC plug has three prongs. The DC plug for the DC adapter has two, that go to the monitor. Yes it is round, but there is still only two inside of this cord.
This is what I have a problem with, in order for 115v to be dumped it had to be grounded, there is no ground unless the monitor or DC adapter creates one. This is what I am still wondering about.... this is what a 10v outlet could make happen! I know I sound like I just want to get this stuff payed for, and I do, but not for the wrong reasons.
Again if this happened purely by having a positive and negative, not including a non-connected ground to the monitor, then this would of happened with every USB external harddrive I used. I have used two at the same time, one provides straight forward DC the other provides the same as a Molex connector.
The AC recepticle was faulty at only providing 10v, how could there be a dispute over that? When you test with a multimeter you will get the full potential that the socket is capable of, it will not give you 10v when it has 115v, that would never happen. Also allowing 115v and up to 20a, because there was no surge, would not damage the AC recepticle. If the breaker would of popped I would of never been able to get 115v off of the bottom side of the AC recepitcle and not the top.
There are some what unanswered questions with the AC recepticle, why this never happened with USB devices.... How did the monitor create a ground if it was not the AC recepticle? I would like to figure these out, well I believe I have. Yes my amplifier was the big problem, it is fixed now do not worry. Also so you know part of this was the original wiring color was opposite on the original two prong plug, and hence the way I wired it.
Also the monitor work again? You might of missed where I mentioned that smoke ROLLED out of it.
The monitor was suppose to have a ground, all VGA plugs do, but these are DC "signal ground" or what ever, the negative. This "ground" has zero connection to the ground that plugs into the wall.
_
_\______####________
_/...................................\_
(periods are just for space)
I hope that picture works... The AC plug has three prongs. The DC plug for the DC adapter has two, that go to the monitor. Yes it is round, but there is still only two inside of this cord.
This is what I have a problem with, in order for 115v to be dumped it had to be grounded, there is no ground unless the monitor or DC adapter creates one. This is what I am still wondering about.... this is what a 10v outlet could make happen! I know I sound like I just want to get this stuff payed for, and I do, but not for the wrong reasons.
Again if this happened purely by having a positive and negative, not including a non-connected ground to the monitor, then this would of happened with every USB external harddrive I used. I have used two at the same time, one provides straight forward DC the other provides the same as a Molex connector.
The AC recepticle was faulty at only providing 10v, how could there be a dispute over that? When you test with a multimeter you will get the full potential that the socket is capable of, it will not give you 10v when it has 115v, that would never happen. Also allowing 115v and up to 20a, because there was no surge, would not damage the AC recepticle. If the breaker would of popped I would of never been able to get 115v off of the bottom side of the AC recepitcle and not the top.
There are some what unanswered questions with the AC recepticle, why this never happened with USB devices.... How did the monitor create a ground if it was not the AC recepticle? I would like to figure these out, well I believe I have. Yes my amplifier was the big problem, it is fixed now do not worry. Also so you know part of this was the original wiring color was opposite on the original two prong plug, and hence the way I wired it.
Also the monitor work again? You might of missed where I mentioned that smoke ROLLED out of it.
Destroyer OS. said:Well I looked inside the amplifier and plug-in....
Unfortunately it did have a hot chassis. The amplifier was originally designed with a plug that could go in a socket either way.... It had a resistor inbetween the negative and the chassis.... The resistor is now just a piece of wire. I have made it impossible to get a hot chassis now. There is a three prong plug on the amplifier so it will never be upside down again, and it is wire correctly.
The amplifier has been plugged in and out of the laptop probably near a hundred times.
Now to explain what happened.... The amplifier found ground for 115v right? Well it found it through my laptop, into my friends monitor... Then for some reason it also found it's way through the battery charger of my laptop.
This would entail that the monitor had a bad isolation circuit correct? That allowed grounding correct?
Now what about the socket? Why would it only put out 10v? Could the socket only producing 10v, causing an over draw in current, break the isolation circuit? I am not sure what else to think...
The amplifiers poor design made this happen, but they cause is the monitor. I could never ask my friend to replace my laptop, he can not afford it. I also can not afford it..... However I do know my laptop is going to die I am sure.
It would only be the school's fault if the socket broke the isolation circuit in the monitor by only suppling 10v.....
Thoughts on that... Well basically because it was only 115v at what ever amprage running through the socket, how could it of possibly hurt the socket? You guys are welcome to prove me wrong, but some thing broke the isolation circuit in the monitor... The socket would be an explination, aside from that it was just Samsungs fault?
Either way I am ****** with out a laptop..... I have way to much school work on it. If the socket cauesd this then the school is at fault. If it is just the monitor it would be Samsungs fault? My poor IBM got the brute of this and did nothing wrong.
The socket is not supplying 10v. Your multimeter is seeing 10v through the carbon + vaporized/redeposited copper from blowing something out.
I can tell you right now, the school is going to take one look at that amplifier and laugh at you behind your back if you try to get money out of them.
It is not their fault that you hooked up a non-isolated (neutral to ground tied together) amp to their outlet then through your laptop/monitor.
A long long time ago (well, not that long) - it was not uncommon to have a device with a 2 prong plug. One plug was neutral and ground, the other was hot. Well, if you plug it in the wrong way around, the chassis will be live because you just hooked up hot to what the device wanted to be neutral/ground. This is fine if you only hook up isolated devices, but I am fairly certain your friend's monitor had a proper 3-prong plug with a real ground going through the signal cable, grounding your laptop, and hence trying to ground the live chassis of your amp.
Sorry, It's pretty much your fault. Stop trying to blame the school.
Hi Destroyer OS.,
At this point try to concentrate on getting things working again. Also correct any saftey issues you may have with your gear.
I am terribly sorry this happened to you, but you are not hurt. Time to count your blessings and go forward.
If you are going to repair these items, start a new thread for each. I'm sure you will get some good advice.
The AC outlet has thin jumpers between the sockets. They are designed to be snapped off if desired to run two circuits instead of one. A large current pulse will overheat them, they may burn out. This will cause a splash of metal and burning of the body due to high temperatures. Keep in mind that the current pulse was well over 15 or 20 amps instantaneously. Fuses and breakers operate thermally. Therefore there is a time lag in their operation.
-Chris
At this point try to concentrate on getting things working again. Also correct any saftey issues you may have with your gear.
I am terribly sorry this happened to you, but you are not hurt. Time to count your blessings and go forward.
If you are going to repair these items, start a new thread for each. I'm sure you will get some good advice.
The AC outlet has thin jumpers between the sockets. They are designed to be snapped off if desired to run two circuits instead of one. A large current pulse will overheat them, they may burn out. This will cause a splash of metal and burning of the body due to high temperatures. Keep in mind that the current pulse was well over 15 or 20 amps instantaneously. Fuses and breakers operate thermally. Therefore there is a time lag in their operation.
-Chris
The power supply for the LCD could have an issue. It is also possible that negative output of the power supply is deliberately grounded for safety reasons... an LCD might have voltages inside that warrant protection... I don't know for sure.
I don't know how this killed the fan in your laptop. Perhaps a copper trace common to the fan and the audio output has been comprimised. Either way an easy fix and something you should do right away... whether they buy you new gear or not. You don't want your processor going nuts and scraping your hard drive.
As far as the LCD is concerned... it may be good. It too, probably has a ground/negative trace that opened, AND the ground/negative wires in the data cable and the power cable might be fried. It's worth a shot to look... because otherwise your zero-ohm bleeder you had on the amp means you owe your buddy a monitor.
Forget about the 10 Volts on the AC outlet... makes no sense at all, AND, you measured that AFTER the meltdown.
I don't know how this killed the fan in your laptop. Perhaps a copper trace common to the fan and the audio output has been comprimised. Either way an easy fix and something you should do right away... whether they buy you new gear or not. You don't want your processor going nuts and scraping your hard drive.
As far as the LCD is concerned... it may be good. It too, probably has a ground/negative trace that opened, AND the ground/negative wires in the data cable and the power cable might be fried. It's worth a shot to look... because otherwise your zero-ohm bleeder you had on the amp means you owe your buddy a monitor.
Forget about the 10 Volts on the AC outlet... makes no sense at all, AND, you measured that AFTER the meltdown.
Destroyer OS. said:
It is physically impossible for an outlet to be supplying 10v at any usable current. Even if it were, it would not cause any damage. No SMPS is designed to even begin start up with a line voltage of 10v. It just won't do it.
If you really believe it was the outlet then you need to do some real testing to figure out what actually happened. Unfortunately some things are physically burned out now so you don't know what the state of things before the small fires and fireworks.
I have the same (or very similar) laptop. It was expensive and I'd be pissed too. At the least you have learned a good lesson about grounding and isolation.
Destroyer OS. said:
Resistors rarely, (and I mean RARELY!) go low in value, and never go short circuit. In this case it's a specially specified safety resistor, and would never fail in that fashion. Why on earth did you do something so stupid?.
Nothing wrong in the monitor!, nothing wrong in the socket either!, the entire problem was caused by the incredibly stupid action of shorting chassis directly to the incoming live mains supply. If there was a fault on the socket?, it was damaged by shorting the live wire directly to ground when you connected your units together.
I'm also amazed you have a multi-meter?, and know how to use it - doing what you did shows such a complete lack of any electrical knowledge at all, and is probably the most dangerous thing you could have done!.
I do PAT electrical safety tests, and I wouldn't have allowed you to even take that away, without it being either repaired correctly, or disabled in a safe way!.
OK, raidfibre and anatech have the clues/answer,
When the meltdown happened the jumper in the AC outlet vaporised. The feed wires in the outlet are no doubt connected to the bottom pair of terminals.
Now the outlet is all coated with carbon... so there is a high resistance path from lower socket to the upper socket. This path, in series with your voltmeter's input impedance is what gave you the 10 volt reading. Say your meter has 1 Meg Zin... the carbon path was probably about 11 meg...
When the meltdown happened the jumper in the AC outlet vaporised. The feed wires in the outlet are no doubt connected to the bottom pair of terminals.
Now the outlet is all coated with carbon... so there is a high resistance path from lower socket to the upper socket. This path, in series with your voltmeter's input impedance is what gave you the 10 volt reading. Say your meter has 1 Meg Zin... the carbon path was probably about 11 meg...
Hi Destroyer OS.,
The current took the easiest path(s) to ground. Most of the ground traces were vapourized I bet. Measurements now are useless unless you have another to compare with.
Nigel is just very, very concerned for you. Especially in his field. He wants you to think and understand what is going on. Running a service shop, we were instructed to cut the power cord off any dangerous equipment that was not made safe. That means a few very unhappy customers. Oh well.
Read all the posts again. What happened was extremely dangerous to you and any others around that receiver. My guess is that you are not very concerned, but if you step back and rethink this you may understand some of the strong replies. They are not personal attacks, just a response to a very dangerous situation.
-Chris
The current took the easiest path(s) to ground. Most of the ground traces were vapourized I bet. Measurements now are useless unless you have another to compare with.
Nigel is just very, very concerned for you. Especially in his field. He wants you to think and understand what is going on. Running a service shop, we were instructed to cut the power cord off any dangerous equipment that was not made safe. That means a few very unhappy customers. Oh well.
Read all the posts again. What happened was extremely dangerous to you and any others around that receiver. My guess is that you are not very concerned, but if you step back and rethink this you may understand some of the strong replies. They are not personal attacks, just a response to a very dangerous situation.
-Chris
Destroyer,
Not all equipment requires a ground... it depends on the voltages inside, the power levels involved and the type of power supply used.
Your satellite equpiment probably is fairly low power/voltage so simple isolation is all the UL requires. The LCD on the other hand is higher powered. I am guessing at this point that the negative output of the LCD wall-wart is grounded... UL does allow this.
It is nearly impossible for any condition of the AC outlet to cause this.
The amp caused the meltdown and was the SOLE reason.
The 10 volts you measured afterwards was due to carbon tracks.
Your buddy's LCD is hurting but most probably can be fixed... and he can probably get by without it for awhile.
The school will probably tell you, "We're sorry... but..."
The mods would probably be happy to close this thread as some have taken to beating the hell out of you... well intentioned or not.
Start a new thread and let's get your laptop fixed before she overheats.
Then... we'll fix the LCD. Then... the amp.
Not all equipment requires a ground... it depends on the voltages inside, the power levels involved and the type of power supply used.
Your satellite equpiment probably is fairly low power/voltage so simple isolation is all the UL requires. The LCD on the other hand is higher powered. I am guessing at this point that the negative output of the LCD wall-wart is grounded... UL does allow this.
It is nearly impossible for any condition of the AC outlet to cause this.
The amp caused the meltdown and was the SOLE reason.
The 10 volts you measured afterwards was due to carbon tracks.
Your buddy's LCD is hurting but most probably can be fixed... and he can probably get by without it for awhile.
The school will probably tell you, "We're sorry... but..."
The mods would probably be happy to close this thread as some have taken to beating the hell out of you... well intentioned or not.
Start a new thread and let's get your laptop fixed before she overheats.
Then... we'll fix the LCD. Then... the amp.
Sorry but any one that can be mistaken for doing personal attack in his manner... Basically I have ZERO respect for any one that just calls some one stupid and says "no." People will never learn any thing if you put them down and refuse to teach them or help them in any one. Nigel is a VERY good example of what I think is wrong with a lot of the world today, especially parenting.
Any ways.... I cracked open the DC adapter for the monitor and the leads going out to the monitor are "Vout" and "GND" I think we know what those stand for... The "GND" is DESOLDERED. I am trying to trace where the ground to from the wall. It so far went to a shield around the unit. However there is a lot of freaking glue so I am not sure where the other lead goes just yet.
From the shielding location the ground goes to two I think capacitors labled SEC 471k SB, 250v X1 Y1, 400v~C. From there it is jumpered to a inductor which is also connected to a yellow box, the common, and then into the yellow box perhaps, connected by three resistors in series under it eventually leading out to a fuse, which is connected to the positive, and a resistor I think (maybe a capacitor) that leads back to the original SEC capacitors and other side of the inductor.... I can draw a schematic of that if any one wants me too, to help understand this.
I will report where the other wire from ground goes to when I uncover it from glue.
Any ways.... I cracked open the DC adapter for the monitor and the leads going out to the monitor are "Vout" and "GND" I think we know what those stand for... The "GND" is DESOLDERED. I am trying to trace where the ground to from the wall. It so far went to a shield around the unit. However there is a lot of freaking glue so I am not sure where the other lead goes just yet.
From the shielding location the ground goes to two I think capacitors labled SEC 471k SB, 250v X1 Y1, 400v~C. From there it is jumpered to a inductor which is also connected to a yellow box, the common, and then into the yellow box perhaps, connected by three resistors in series under it eventually leading out to a fuse, which is connected to the positive, and a resistor I think (maybe a capacitor) that leads back to the original SEC capacitors and other side of the inductor.... I can draw a schematic of that if any one wants me too, to help understand this.
I will report where the other wire from ground goes to when I uncover it from glue.
OK,
That's all fine... before you proceed measure aross the output terminals of the adapter, if the resistance is low there find out why. Fix anything that might have melted or smoked,
The melted solder might have saved the wiring in the adapter from damage... a good thing.
Now, BEFORE you plug it in, take a 3 prong extension cord and insert a 3 amp fuse, and a switch in the LINE wire, not neutral or ground. We can show you which is which. Use this between the adapter and the wall... and look away for a few minutes after you power it up... goggles are a smart thing too.
If the adapter works... and I think it will... DO NOT try the LCD! You have to open the LCD and find what smoked... traces make a TON of smoke...
That's all fine... before you proceed measure aross the output terminals of the adapter, if the resistance is low there find out why. Fix anything that might have melted or smoked,
The melted solder might have saved the wiring in the adapter from damage... a good thing.
Now, BEFORE you plug it in, take a 3 prong extension cord and insert a 3 amp fuse, and a switch in the LINE wire, not neutral or ground. We can show you which is which. Use this between the adapter and the wall... and look away for a few minutes after you power it up... goggles are a smart thing too.
If the adapter works... and I think it will... DO NOT try the LCD! You have to open the LCD and find what smoked... traces make a TON of smoke...
Destroyer OS. said:
You still appear to have no idea of how dangerous what you did is? - perhaps to give you some idea?. Consider you have a hand grenade sat in your room, as a nice decoration (sounds quite cool to me) - then one day you decide it looks untidy with that nasty pin sticking out of it, so you remove it. You then try and blame the grenade manufacturer for destroying your room!.
I'm presuming the LCD monitor was plugged in the laptop?, so this is what I think (VERY confidently) happened.
1) Your bodged amplifier has it's chassis connected directly to the live of the mains - so full 110V live mains on every piece of outside metal and wire (lucky it's not 230V mains!).
2) The LCD monitor is presumably grounded, as is perfectly normal, and presumably a legal requirement? (every monitor you see seems to be grounded).
3) The laptop ISN'T grounded, I can't comment on the particular model, but I PAT test a LOT of laptops being taken to the local council offices, before they are allowed in the building - and I've never seen a grounded one.
4) Plugging the earthed monitor into the laptop earths the laptop, via the lead to the monitor, and hence via the monitors mains lead.
5) As soon as you tried to plug the live amplifier lead into the laptop you shorted the mains (from the amplifier) down to ground, through the laptop, through the monitor, and back through the monitors mains lead. From the sound of things, this damaged the socket on the wall as well.
You should be very thankful that the laptop doesn't have a metal case - it's common to hold it with one hand while you push the plug in with the other - result, full mains directly across your chest and heart!.
Yes, I am concerned about your safety, but even more so about the safety of anyone else near by - and also concerned about your efforts to blame the school, for something for which they are entirely faultless!.
As for the LCD monitor, it's very possible that the only damage is to the power supply, and as suggested, most probably just PCB track damage. But I would strongly suggest you get it repaired by a competent service engineer!.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.