Can the horn be reinforced on the back with some Mortite plumbers putty or the like? Then put the thing in a nice box and enjoy...
Does anyone feel the need for a super tweeter with these?
Looks like a great idea. Maybe it's not perfect but it's relatively innexpensive and should give you that horny sound. So many 12" drivers to choose from to match with.
Nice job on your speaker Russellc. I want a pair!
Godzilla
Does anyone feel the need for a super tweeter with these?
Looks like a great idea. Maybe it's not perfect but it's relatively innexpensive and should give you that horny sound. So many 12" drivers to choose from to match with.
Nice job on your speaker Russellc. I want a pair!
Godzilla
Here's a quick measurement of a PTH1010 on axis Red and 30 degree's off axis Green at 1 meter. Doesn't look to bad to me. They sound good to boot. This is a more expensive waveguide about $100 but the family is certainly are worth a look if you are going to using them above 1K or so.
Rob
Rob
Attachments
Godzilla said:
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not trying to draft anyone, this just sounds good is all, really. I see no need for super tweeter, I think they're just fine. With the compensation network they are fairly flat beyond what I can probably hear, something I cant say about my Altec drivers. These are plenty crisp for sure.
It is inexpensive, but with a little work can be surprisingly "perfect" in terms of the high frequency section matching and matching well, the low frequency portion. It really is a fun speaker, very enjoyable & cheap! The 4647 cabinets have great slam and the soundstage is large and clean, really worth a try with any of the woofers used in the thread, or whatever low end box you have.
Apparently, old jbl drivers from the L 100 series and the varients of that driver are used by the authors with great success.
Russellc
It's a cheap plastic $10 waveguide, but it doesn't seem to audibly ring or resonate, even unmounted.Godzilla said:
I have treated the back side of one pair with spray-on damping, and that deadens the sound of thumping it somewhat:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-250
The best suggestion I have yet seen was submitted by a vibration analysis expert on LHF -- build a closed box behind it with the thread-on throat poking out the back to mount the driver, fill with pool filter sand, and close. Have a covered opening (or two) at the top to add more sand as it settles and packs from vibration.
Short of encasing it in concrete (he suggested a plaster/sand mix, sticco comes to mind,) that will make it dead as can be....
Here is the B&C ME10 little guy on the DE10 compression driver. No on-axis equalization needed for anything but the normal crossover to the 6" midrange. All measurements taken about 1.5m, 1/3 octave smoothing.
Here is the off-axis, about 30-35 deg with the same crossover. Measurements taken outdoors with the loudspeaker elevated about 8'.
Took about 15 min. to design the crossover after taking the measurements so getting this far isn't rocket-science. Driver & horn is about $60 and three components handles the crossover.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is the off-axis, about 30-35 deg with the same crossover. Measurements taken outdoors with the loudspeaker elevated about 8'.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Took about 15 min. to design the crossover after taking the measurements so getting this far isn't rocket-science. Driver & horn is about $60 and three components handles the crossover.
Has anyone heard of the Sellenium D3500ti-ND 2" Driver
I'm after a 1" or 2" driver that I can cross at about 850hz. Initially I was just going to buy the JBL 2426J however, I wondered if there were any better alternatives. I was also looking at the B&C DE750TN-8 2 as an alternative as well.
edit. I also just found the
My budget is around $300 per driver. Any suggestions/ recommendations would be great.
P.Audio SD750
I'm after a 1" or 2" driver that I can cross at about 850hz. Initially I was just going to buy the JBL 2426J however, I wondered if there were any better alternatives. I was also looking at the B&C DE750TN-8 2 as an alternative as well.
edit. I also just found the
My budget is around $300 per driver. Any suggestions/ recommendations would be great.
P.Audio SD750
wow there are so many drivers.
I have decided I want to go for the Azzurahorn AH-550 for the flare.
I just can't decide on the driver. I am pretty sure I want a 1" driver.
It seems to be out of the:
JBL 2426 H (am I paying for the name?)
B&C DE500 (not to much info about it)
BMS 4552ND ( Looks very promising but can't find any where that sells it.. anyone know?)
or there is the used option of something like the JBL 2431H .
The next thing.... I missed out on the 2226J (damn ebay). So i'm also after recommendations for a efficient 15" driver to mate with horns.
Cheers
I have decided I want to go for the Azzurahorn AH-550 for the flare.
I just can't decide on the driver. I am pretty sure I want a 1" driver.
It seems to be out of the:
JBL 2426 H (am I paying for the name?)
B&C DE500 (not to much info about it)
BMS 4552ND ( Looks very promising but can't find any where that sells it.. anyone know?)
or there is the used option of something like the JBL 2431H .
The next thing.... I missed out on the 2226J (damn ebay). So i'm also after recommendations for a efficient 15" driver to mate with horns.
Cheers
The driver won't make nearly as much audible difference as the waveguide will.
A diffraction horn is one where the sound is diffracted by a rapid slope change at the throat so that it can be controled by the horn walls. Reflections are created from the discontinuity which are heard as resonances. The slope change does not have to sharp like it was in the old days - where the slope changed abruptly. It can be more gradual (i.e. PT). The JBL horn does have a fairly sharp rate of change of the horn walls and thus I would call it a diffraction horn despite the fact that they don't. The term "diffraction" has taken on a bad connotation and "Progressive Transition" certainly sounds better (the term and the devices). But IMO it is still not a waveguide, it is a diffraction horn, albeit an improved diffraction horn.
These JBL devices are a remarkable bargain, I don't question that, but they are not going to sound as good as a truely refined waveguide. For the money, they appear unbeatable and any driver should work fine.
I am not particularly interested in moving backwards in my designs no matter how cheap they may be. I simply have no interest in the horn itself, I was just shocked that JBL - the brand and usually price leader - would be selling anything so cheap. This is a significant departure from the past.
The DE500 data can be found at B&Cs web page. I prefer the DE250 or DE160. I also found the Eminence 1" driver to work well on my waveguides. There is no need to buy the more expensive drivers for home use because even the lower cost ones are more than enough quality for home use. I would be concerned about production run stability (ala the Selenium data posted earlier) than the actual drivers response. B&C is very good at production stability.
A diffraction horn is one where the sound is diffracted by a rapid slope change at the throat so that it can be controled by the horn walls. Reflections are created from the discontinuity which are heard as resonances. The slope change does not have to sharp like it was in the old days - where the slope changed abruptly. It can be more gradual (i.e. PT). The JBL horn does have a fairly sharp rate of change of the horn walls and thus I would call it a diffraction horn despite the fact that they don't. The term "diffraction" has taken on a bad connotation and "Progressive Transition" certainly sounds better (the term and the devices). But IMO it is still not a waveguide, it is a diffraction horn, albeit an improved diffraction horn.
These JBL devices are a remarkable bargain, I don't question that, but they are not going to sound as good as a truely refined waveguide. For the money, they appear unbeatable and any driver should work fine.
I am not particularly interested in moving backwards in my designs no matter how cheap they may be. I simply have no interest in the horn itself, I was just shocked that JBL - the brand and usually price leader - would be selling anything so cheap. This is a significant departure from the past.
The DE500 data can be found at B&Cs web page. I prefer the DE250 or DE160. I also found the Eminence 1" driver to work well on my waveguides. There is no need to buy the more expensive drivers for home use because even the lower cost ones are more than enough quality for home use. I would be concerned about production run stability (ala the Selenium data posted earlier) than the actual drivers response. B&C is very good at production stability.
For anyone interested, JBL has put a ton of R&D into these, and the design is very refined. I dont think anyone who tries it will think it is a step backwards from anything. Cheap enough to experiment with, try it, nothing to be afraid of, really.
When I was first told it would walk on my Altec top end with 511B, I had my doubts, being a vintage altec fan. This little 6" x 12" plastic horn? I had previously tried Eminence H290 and Altec 811 B, but they didnt come close to the work done by the 511B.
Screwed a 2425H on the back, stuck it on top of the A7s, fiddled with placement and phasing, and damned if it didnt keep up!
On the econowave, unrefined, step backwards, what ever you call them, they just played in a surprisingly great way. This isnt just a cheap listen, its a top flight listen and will make you seriously question things more expensive.
If you have previously enjoyed or thought you wanted Klipsch, Altec, etc, try this. Not just a "Oh, thats nice for the price", it more like "thats fantastic" at whatever price. Dont understand all the resistance! It sounds fabulous and is reasonable guys, I guess it really takes hearing/building one to understand the enthusiasm people are having for these. This reaction has been universal, among many who have much more expensive stuff at their disposal. Not a single person who has done it so far has failed to be flat astonished at how well it works, and no one has said, "no thanks, not for me" yet, at least among those who've tried. Bring on the nay sayers! Just say yes!
Russellc
When I was first told it would walk on my Altec top end with 511B, I had my doubts, being a vintage altec fan. This little 6" x 12" plastic horn? I had previously tried Eminence H290 and Altec 811 B, but they didnt come close to the work done by the 511B.
Screwed a 2425H on the back, stuck it on top of the A7s, fiddled with placement and phasing, and damned if it didnt keep up!
On the econowave, unrefined, step backwards, what ever you call them, they just played in a surprisingly great way. This isnt just a cheap listen, its a top flight listen and will make you seriously question things more expensive.
If you have previously enjoyed or thought you wanted Klipsch, Altec, etc, try this. Not just a "Oh, thats nice for the price", it more like "thats fantastic" at whatever price. Dont understand all the resistance! It sounds fabulous and is reasonable guys, I guess it really takes hearing/building one to understand the enthusiasm people are having for these. This reaction has been universal, among many who have much more expensive stuff at their disposal. Not a single person who has done it so far has failed to be flat astonished at how well it works, and no one has said, "no thanks, not for me" yet, at least among those who've tried. Bring on the nay sayers! Just say yes!
Russellc
Russell
Thats not really fair. Your assuming that I don't know the JBL produtcs and technologies. I used JBLs for twenty years in my own system - I know their products well. Your base of comparison is old technology not new technology. And if its the sound of the older horns that you like then I would suspect that these devices would please you.
But newer approaches yield devices that DON'T sound like the older horns. You may not like that, but a lot of people don't like the older sound. I was one of these people. In blind tests (using JBL horns) people all prefered the newer designs to the JBLs. No one guessed that the newer designs were even horns (waveguides actually), but everyone knew that the JBLs were horns. They have a very distinct sound character.
My relutance to "try one" has to do with time - I don't have as much as I need. I can't just try out everything. I would be willing to test this device on the drivers that I have (DE250 or DE25 or DE500) if someone could get one of the horns to me in a few days. I'd pay for it thats not a problem, but time is. I would think that it would be worth the ten bucks to you to see the data that you asked me for!!
I use my living room for measurements and I have to setup and tear down each time I want to do a set of measurements. Its a real hassle. I am actually setup right now and if I got a horn in the next few days then I could, and promise that I would, do a full set of polars on it and then they could be compared to a modern waveguide - I have lots of data on those.
Beyond this, I simply don't have the time to do it.
I don't have any thread on drivers so if thats all the JBL horn takes then its a problem for me.
Thats not really fair. Your assuming that I don't know the JBL produtcs and technologies. I used JBLs for twenty years in my own system - I know their products well. Your base of comparison is old technology not new technology. And if its the sound of the older horns that you like then I would suspect that these devices would please you.
But newer approaches yield devices that DON'T sound like the older horns. You may not like that, but a lot of people don't like the older sound. I was one of these people. In blind tests (using JBL horns) people all prefered the newer designs to the JBLs. No one guessed that the newer designs were even horns (waveguides actually), but everyone knew that the JBLs were horns. They have a very distinct sound character.
My relutance to "try one" has to do with time - I don't have as much as I need. I can't just try out everything. I would be willing to test this device on the drivers that I have (DE250 or DE25 or DE500) if someone could get one of the horns to me in a few days. I'd pay for it thats not a problem, but time is. I would think that it would be worth the ten bucks to you to see the data that you asked me for!!
I use my living room for measurements and I have to setup and tear down each time I want to do a set of measurements. Its a real hassle. I am actually setup right now and if I got a horn in the next few days then I could, and promise that I would, do a full set of polars on it and then they could be compared to a modern waveguide - I have lots of data on those.
Beyond this, I simply don't have the time to do it.
I don't have any thread on drivers so if thats all the JBL horn takes then its a problem for me.
What is the 0deg reference measurement axis for your loudspeaker designs Dr. Geddes?
Always the waveguide center? Or midpoint between woofer and waveguide centers? Something changes in case of a 3 way?
Also for us diyers not having rotation tables, is it best to move the omni mic along an arc, pointing like an arrow in angles, or moving it on a parallel line will be sufficient up to 2m distances?
I am aware that I probably ask obvious things, but I wanna know your input, since I have seen different practices.
Always the waveguide center? Or midpoint between woofer and waveguide centers? Something changes in case of a 3 way?
Also for us diyers not having rotation tables, is it best to move the omni mic along an arc, pointing like an arrow in angles, or moving it on a parallel line will be sufficient up to 2m distances?
I am aware that I probably ask obvious things, but I wanna know your input, since I have seen different practices.
>>> Here is the B&C ME10 little guy on the DE10 compression driver. No on-axis equalization needed...
Thanks for posting that Kevin. I was looking at this driver combo because it's innexpensive and looks to be good quality. I like how the horn looks to be designed for the driver.
Have you listened to this in a home setting? How does it sound as a home speaker system?
Thanks,
Godzilla
Thanks for posting that Kevin. I was looking at this driver combo because it's innexpensive and looks to be good quality. I like how the horn looks to be designed for the driver.
Have you listened to this in a home setting? How does it sound as a home speaker system?
Thanks,
Godzilla
salas said:
No problem with questions.
I use a point between the woofer and waveguide. Its really arbitrary, but can make some small differences.
I really don't like moving the microphone. My rotation table costs about $9.75 (or less than the JBL horn!)
Really all that is needed are two pieces of wood with a pin in the center so that the top piece rotates. Use melamine for the sliding suraces and I grease mine since the heavy systems can be hard to turn. I build an upright stand about 4 feet tall to put it on. Its all just 2x4's and wood shelving (melamine) - scrap actually. And it works great. In Thailand I used a motorized table - got no better data than I get with the wood plates.2 Meters is tough to do in a small space. I use 1 meter. But be warned that the distance can make a difference. Closer yields more irregularity than farther away. Many people use 10 meters because it smoothes the curves so much.
gedlee said:
No problem with questions.
I use a point between the woofer and waveguide. Its really arbitrary, but can make some small differences.
I really don't like moving the microphone. My rotation table costs about $9.75 (or less than the JBL horn!)
2 Meters is tough to do in a small space. I use 1 meter. But be warned that the distance can make a difference. Closer yields more irregularity than farther away. Many people use 10 meters because it smoothes the curves so much.
You still need to adjust the mic stand for vertical off axis I guess.
Tech section:
2 meters I use after the 1m measurement set. It gives me a better idea of the in room trends. 1m is superior for resolution. I use midpoint between woofer and HF system's rims for 0 deg most of the time. In case of a ribbon HF I point to the ribbon. In 3 ways I do the same. I.e. I point between Mid and HF rims. Anything I must do different in your opinion?
BS section:
I would like to get a servo table moving in lock with Leap and seeing the off axis 5deg dif lines popping up. No use for me, I am not producing anything and I do not need 70s KEF reference line production control standards, but I like it robotic!
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