B&C Compression Driver and Horns

[gedlee]

Sorry, I should rephrase. What I mean is that it seems that i'm not going to have the technical expertise to get the sound i'm after.

Its very wise of you to realize that some things can be quite difficult to achieve. My better design have had years of development. Unless you have that kind of time and the knowledge to do it right, you are only going to find that in the end you had a lot of fun!!, but things were tougher than you thought.

 

[Godzilla]

>>> but things were tougher than you thought.

I spent over a year noodling with a crossover for a Dynaudio tweeter and Eton woofer. Both expensive drivers and even more expensive crossover components. I enjoyed them for weeks at a time before opening them up again and again. Eventually, i just gave up. But i was expecting perfection for that kind of money. Everyone who heard them thought they were fantastic. I was never happy. Ultimately, it's not what everyone else thinks, rather what you think as the primary listener of your creation.

 

[gedlee]

>>> but things were tougher than you thought.

Everyone who heard them thought they were fantastic. I was never happy. Ultimately, it's not what everyone else thinks, rather what you think as the primary listener of your creation.

Are any of your friends ever going to say "those speakers sound terrible!!" I don't think so. You are never going to get an honest opinion from others.

And can you even trust your own opinion? I mean aren't you just a little bit biased! Just a little!!!! Is in inconceivable that you could covince yourself that "your creation" was "really great" when in fact it was anything but!

Anyone who thinks that loudspeaker evaluation is as simple as just listening to them is either totally naieve or just plain stupid.

 

[MJL21193]

I bet we could get a straight up honest opinion from you.

I have gotten some blunt criticism in the past from friendly sources, both on styling and on sound. Part of the reason why some will not be direct is due to the recipients poor attitude toward criticism.
I'm not going to tell you your speakers suck if you're going to get all upset and angry at me.

 

[warnsey]

So could the 2226 be crossed at 900hz with the 2426H? The 2226 seems to have a reasonably flat response to 1000khz and the 2426H looks like it could be crossed at around 900hz. Would I be asking to much of each driver?

 

[Godzilla]

>>> Are any of your friends ever going to say "those speakers sound terrible!!" I don't think so. You are never going to get an honest opinion from others.

I wonder if I am that intimidating? I have gotten criticism many times. What I was saying is that crossover design is difficult for me. But I am my own worst critic. What sounds good to others doesn’t always sound good to me. That’s one of the reasons I build my own speakers. Sticking two or more drivers together, regardless of quality, is not easy and doesn’t always result in good sound. I trust my ears over measurements and for me, I am always correct, LOL. Measurements mean nothing to me when it comes to my speaker projects. But I appreciate them for what they are and I appreciate designers of speakers that measure beautifully.

 

[Brett]

Would I be asking to much of each driver?

Yes, most likely you would.

 

[warnsey]

Thanks for the replies Brett. So is there a way around the confines of these types of driver but still maintain the use of a mid horn and tweeter?

 

[hasselbaink]

A mature DIY'er

>>> but things were tougher than you thought.

I spent over a year noodling with a crossover for a Dynaudio tweeter and Eton woofer. Both expensive drivers and even more expensive crossover components. I enjoyed them for weeks at a time before opening them up again and again. Eventually, i just gave up. But i was expecting perfection for that kind of money. Everyone who heard them thought they were fantastic. I was never happy. Ultimately, it's not what everyone else thinks, rather what you think as the primary listener of your creation.

.
.
I don't think I have ever heard it said more succinctly than this.
Technical knowledge, measurements and good sense apart - nothing is as important as realizing precisely what you want to achieve sonically. This is the ultimate benchmark for the mature DIY'er. It takes character to realize and admit that your project has failed.

Kris
.
.

 

[gedlee]

>>> Are any of your friends ever going to say "those speakers sound terrible!!" I don't think so. You are never going to get an honest opinion from others.

I wonder if I am that intimidating?

... Measurements mean nothing to me when it comes to my speaker projects. But I appreciate them for what they are and I appreciate designers of speakers that measure beautifully.

Quite the opposite - being a really nice guy always makes the reviews of your loudspeakers go up!! Its called human nature!

I really think that measurements are the key. During the iteration of a crossover (or any part for that matter), if one anchors this loop through measurements, always going in the direction of better measurements, but listening to confirm that a change is positive BOTH by listening AND by measurement, then you can really get somewhere. Cut out the measurement part and you are running open loop and things can end up anywhere.

 

[gedlee]

I bet we could get a straight up honest opinion from you.

But you see I don't give subjective opinions. I will give a straight-up answer, as I know it, no matter what others might believe, but you will very seldom hear me express a subjective opinion.

 

[Brett]

You quite wrong, none of my current designs are ported and I don't use them in any of my rooms anymore. When multiple subs are used the closed box makes a lot of sense.

My incorrect assumption, sorry.

Its quite a different stroy to spend money when its not necessary "because you can". I'm just saying that its not necessary. Spend more on women and less on audio - thats my motto!

At the moment, for me, it's the other way around. The burns from the last she-devil are still healing.

Besides, I like to build stuff, and over-the-top is quite unusual for me as most of the engineering projects I'm involved in are strictly price/performance driven.

Curious - your using my waveguides but you recommend something else?

I was being pragmatic for warnsey, as he's new to this and the 18Sounds are somewhat cheaper than yours. But as you said, I will be getting some of your flares as I trust they will be the best. The XT's will go into the PA, and the DDS for the rears in the HT.

 

[SamL]

So could the 2226 be crossed at 900hz with the 2426H? The 2226 seems to have a reasonably flat response to 1000khz and the 2426H looks like it could be crossed at around 900hz. Would I be asking to much of each driver?

Pispekaer P4 cross the JBL 2226 even higher. From memory it is 1200Hz using a passive 3rd order.

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/105

 

[EspenE]

So could the 2226 be crossed at 900hz with the 2426H? The 2226 seems to have a reasonably flat response to 1000khz and the 2426H looks like it could be crossed at around 900hz. Would I be asking to much of each driver?

In a word: no.

I have crossed the 2226 with the 2425 (slightly older version of 2426) on the 2370 horn at 1 kHz with a 4th order passive with good results. Personally, I would not bother with a supertweeter, as this combo is flat to 16-17 kHz.

The 2226 is an excellent sounding driver, and can easily reach 1 kHz.

Many comments unfavourably on the 2370 horn. Though I freely admit that there are better horns for the 2425/2426 drivers (the JBL 2344, for instance - and, yes: I have ordered DIY waveguide kits from Earl to try them out) - I rather like the 2425/2370 for hifi.

IMHO, much of the bad rep the 2370 has concerning hifi is because many tries this horn with misaligned crossover networks. The 2370 is a CD device, and for hifi use needs CD compensation. Without compensation, it often can sound very peaky and nasty.

 

[warnsey]

Thanks for the reply. I think that's what i'll end up going for. I may add a super tweeter, such as the Visaton Tl 16 H later as I think designing a two way crossover would be easier.

Any advice on a two way cross over for the 2226J and the 2426J using the 2370 or similar horn?

 

[gedlee]

Many comments unfavourably on the 2370 horn. Though I freely admit that there are better horns for the 2425/2426 drivers (the JBL 2344, for instance - and, yes: I have ordered DIY waveguide kits from Earl to try them out) - I rather like the 2425/2370 for hifi.

The 2370 is a diffraction horn. I will never use any horn based on diffraction again. And you find that virtually all of the major horn people are doing this also. When Eq'd properly I am sure that you will like my waveguides. Just don't EQ them on axis.

 

[warnsey]

Any recommendations for horns that would suit the JBL 2426 driver other than the 2370A that are reasonably easy to obtain?

 

[gedlee]

I would order a kit from Gedlee...without any experience it will take you years to make your own work properly

Thanks for the plug and I agree. As much fun as twiddling with loudspeakers can be, I think that its important for newbies to realize how much work and expertise goes into a really good design. It's just not that easy to do. It IS fairly easy to get "descent" loudspeakers this way, but to get a really good loudspeaker system takes hundereds of hours of design and testing requiring vast knowledge and equipment.

I would like to point out the discussions of my kits on the Vendors forum and a recent review of my systems by a recent visitor.

 

[EspenE]

The 2370 is a diffraction horn. I will never use any horn based on diffraction again. And you find that virtually all of the major horn people are doing this also. When Eq'd properly I am sure that you will like my waveguides. Just don't EQ them on axis.

I'm looking very much forward to try them. My experience with horns is the JBL 2370 and the 2344 (of which I prefer 2344), and the cheap 10 and 12" Dayton waveguides from Partsexpress. The JBL horns sounds better then the Dayton waveguides, but many have pointed out that these does not have the correct flare.

 

[EspenE]

Thanks for the reply. I think that's what i'll end up going for. I may add a super tweeter, such as the Visaton Tl 16 H later as I think designing a two way crossover would be easier.

Any advice on a two way cross over for the 2226J and the 2426J using the 2370 or similar horn?

I have constructed and made a 2226H (nominal 8 ohm) and 2425J (nominal 16 ohm) network with CD compensation for the 2370 horn. See networks and frequency curves below.

I would guess that the 2426J is a drop-in replacement for the 2425J, and no changes in the HF part is necessary. But bear in mind that my crossover uses the 2226H - not the 2226J.

PS: Later, I have reduced the 2.2uF C1031 down to 1.8uF