+1 Eldam
+1 Joshua_G
+1 Andrea Mori (read many of yourthreads...)
The design coub be discuted : spidf input, usb output ? Both with switching ? Laser disc or not (some others projects exist already) : let take care of too complex project here at this first turn of wheel... but why not, this not my project but an open one : we will have to decide the rules and the licence mode to protect it for commercial copy (we share our time for our use and the enthusiasts)
We can beginn here if the OP want to manage it or beginn to manage it between swap th a original post : If he want : it is him thtread and can impuse it.
+1 Joshua_G
+1 Andrea Mori (read many of yourthreads...)
The design coub be discuted : spidf input, usb output ? Both with switching ? Laser disc or not (some others projects exist already) : let take care of too complex project here at this first turn of wheel... but why not, this not my project but an open one : we will have to decide the rules and the licence mode to protect it for commercial copy (we share our time for our use and the enthusiasts)
We can beginn here if the OP want to manage it or beginn to manage it between swap th a original post : If he want : it is him thtread and can impuse it.
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This isn't as simple as it may sound.
Many can draw PCB (me included). However, it isn't enough, not by far.
See here:
So, unless we may have a world class PCB designer, experienced in both digital and analogue circuits, there is no point in starting.
It is done, here, in this thread.
Let's see what may happen.
Unless we may have a world class PCB designer, experienced in both digital and analogue circuits, there is no point in starting.
I fully accept Mr. Loesch's comments on this.
I believe, you have evey prerequisite to do so.
Well. This was an issue that I simply refused to accept for a very long time.
I wasted a lot of money & time, only to find out later, just how important they were for the end result.
At the very high end, the end result (the products ability to take us to Nirvana) tend to 'converge' rather than diverge. I sincerely hope that I do not insult any one here, or kill some one's dream when I say: yes.
There is anther DAC that seems to share many of the sonic qualities of the units you mentined: Tent DAC that I referred to earlier (VERY cheap), but it doesnt exeed the sonics of dp-777, it matches it closey.
There is another DAC that is = to sonic paradise: Unfortunately = unobtainium
Made by an unknown swedish engineer back in the 90:s
Teflon motherboard
Very unique post analog stage with very special handpicked and matched superbeta transistors
25kg fully copper shielding,
Massive shunt regulators based on highly matched, very unique transistors
partnered with ppb-range, oven controlled crystal oscillator-based transport
Every single parameter taken into the Stratosphere
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I can assure you that a lot of individuals, including myself, admire his work and his kindness to share.
There are many like Mr Loesch and I salute them all.
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Ok, but the jitter could be a great issue even for the best TDA1541A implementation.
To debate a little: S/PDIF is probably the worst way to feed the DAC, so we have I2S or offset binary in simultaneous mode (never listening to the second one, seems it give good results). The bit clock is the crucial signal for the DAC logic.
I think we need a good clock close to the DAC, this means to work asynchronously. How can we do that?
Using an ASRC that shares the same clock of the DAC (for example Ian's Fifo Buffer without the reclocking section) or sending back the clock to the source (transport or SD player or so on).
No, such a man don't need us. First we need to want it and open the doors. For help you trust to the power of collaboration. We want to cross a step not to do better than AMR ! Let's go with the better free collaborative project with peaking in the gifted ideas is th only goal !
1) you can draw : ok
2) this a project : people can exchange ideas around digital and analog step by step
remember the initial idea : any good TDA1541 kit !
1) some ideas were gifted before and free to share : this the beginning !
2) We are in a big village where people are open and free to share/give !
3) We are big boys and are goodwilled !
4) We have a goal : not a first world DAc : but one of the best collaborative and free kit around the TDA1541. Cheap enough for maximum people, so with a cost reduction management in mind. many smart people here in many domains... Why do you initialy ask if you don't trust, if you want not to give as well!
It's possible, but if you have just desire but don't believe... we can not help each others ! At the end yes we ask money to the bankers to buy an AMR. But do we have fun like this ? here its also DIO : Do it ourselves.
I'm sure it cn be an exchange at different level : top designers will discuss and improve their ideas togethers, others will discuss of tubes, discrete, others about their experience about components, etc...
. Are we continuing with philosophy and you to comment the items of what I wrote ? Let's go... A walking fool travel more than a seated inteluctual !
Agree with Alexis : he gave himself ideas about I2S attenuator. We can maybe beginn a list of hints ? (I begann above with naive inputs about my short list, you are all free to comment and improve... and share your experience. Here I try to have a little contribution by motivate, unfornatelly that's all I'm able to do for the moment. But I do it as i believe it's possible to do it and share a fun travel.
Alexis +1 ? you want to participate at your own rythm ?
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No, such a man don't need us. First we need to want it and open the doors. For help you trust to the power of collaboration. We want to cross a step not to do better than AMR ! Let's go with the better free collaborative project with peaking in the gifted ideas is th only goal !
1) you can draw : ok
2) this a project : people can exchange ideas around digital and analog step by step
remember the initial idea : any good TDA1541 kit !
1) some ideas were gifted before and free to share : this the beginning !
2) We are in a big village where people are open and free to share/give !
3) We are big boys and are goodwilled !
4) We have a goal : not a first world DAc : but one of the best collaborative and free kit around the TDA1541. Cheap enough for maximum people, so with a cost reduction management in mind. many smart people here in many domains... Why do you initialy ask if you don't trust, if you want not to give as well!
It's possible, but if you have just desire but don't believe... we can not help each others ! At the end yes we ask money to the bankers to buy an AMR. But do we have fun like this ? here its also DIO : Do it ourselves.
I'm sure it cn be an exchange at different level : top designers will discuss and improve their ideas togethers, others will discuss of tubes, discrete, others about their experience about components, etc...
Let's go... A walking fool travel more than a seated inteluctual !
Agree with Alexis : he gave himself ideas about I2S attenuator. We can maybe beginn a list of hints ? (I begann above with naive inputs about my short list, you are all free to comment and improve... and share your experience. Here I try to have a little contribution by motivate, unfornatelly that's all I'm able to do for the moment. But I do it as i believe it's possible to do it and share a fun travel.
Alexis +1 ? you want to participate at your own rythm ?
Okay, I accept the challenge of starting a collective effort towards a DAC kit design.
I'll start a new thread, but it will take me a while. I need to get over the flu that's holding me under its' grip and I need to go over few threads, including this one and ecdisign's one, in order to have an initial overview of some basic concepts and circuits.
I will help you if I can. Thanks and bravo to accept the challenge !Don't forgett you has to drive the discussion not to be a technician here !
Each has its qualities and give what he can, some others people know already what is inside the ECdesign thread. Let them talk and exchange and drive. We need takl not to much read, because this is collective. You give the tempo, if you go away for reading, the project stay at its starting point.
I have a question:
Is it possible to have a mother board for the TDA 1541 and two close pcbs to choose the inputs with a switch connector : via Async USB or via coaxial SPIDF ?
I admire your passion and drive.
I am honored that you ask Eldam, and as I mentined earlier, I do not consider myself as being any kind of expert.
I will try to help you guys whenever I have the chance. I am afraid it can't be often (job). Lets start with some advice:
- find a design you feel produces the best percieved quality of sound.
- find a design that is competently built (background of designer).
- find a design that is well documented (schematics, development ideas, etc)
- then find as much information as possible abut the design and implementation.
- don't build any 8-layer PCB's yet
- start experimenting
- listen,
- dont not jump into any conclusions.
- Do not take anything as a 'fact' until you have solid evidence.
For example: Just because I say 74HCxxxx is better than 74Fxxxx do not believe it blindly & right away.
* Who is this guy?
* what is his backgorund?
* is there any logic to his claims?
* can I personally verify it?
* be very critical but do not dismiss or reject quickly
- make sure you do measurements (correct ones) on everything you have and any change you make to the circuit with suitable instruments.
- listen,
- dont not jump into any conclusions.
- Do not take anything as a 'fact' until you have solid evidence.
- change certain peripheral circuits you feel are the most influential to the final sound, and observe the resultant change.
- when you feel you have experimented enough, then experiment some more.
- measurements enable you to make sure you are on the right track, so measure.
- listen,
- don not jump into any conclusions.
- once you feel you have arrived at the final stage (hopefully after at the least a couple of ales - Mr. John Brown 9 years), start the pcb process (CAD).
- listen,
- do not not jump into any conclusions.
As I pointed out earlier, non of this is necessary.
The Tent Dac is an absolute reference in DAC design implementation. There are many things that can be taken to the extreme, but the design foundation is solid and is competently documented.
Has any of you had the opportunity to take a look at the documents and design implementation of Tent DAC which is kindly provided to the public by Tent Labs?
Tent Labs Dac main pcb will take an experienced Electronics Design Engineer with solid knowledge and experience more than a year to produce, if a min of 3 hours are invested daily in the design.
Add another year to debug, make corrections and test.
Then go back to experimenting and listening tests on the final assembled PCB.
After at least a couple of more ales, you will arrive at something similar to Tentlabs DAC design.
I am honored that you ask Eldam, and as I mentined earlier, I do not consider myself as being any kind of expert.
I will try to help you guys whenever I have the chance. I am afraid it can't be often (job). Lets start with some advice:
- find a design you feel produces the best percieved quality of sound.
- find a design that is competently built (background of designer).
- find a design that is well documented (schematics, development ideas, etc)
- then find as much information as possible abut the design and implementation.
- don't build any 8-layer PCB's yet
- start experimenting
- listen,
- dont not jump into any conclusions.
- Do not take anything as a 'fact' until you have solid evidence.
For example: Just because I say 74HCxxxx is better than 74Fxxxx do not believe it blindly & right away.
* Who is this guy?
* what is his backgorund?
* is there any logic to his claims?
* can I personally verify it?
* be very critical but do not dismiss or reject quickly
- make sure you do measurements (correct ones) on everything you have and any change you make to the circuit with suitable instruments.
- listen,
- dont not jump into any conclusions.
- Do not take anything as a 'fact' until you have solid evidence.
- change certain peripheral circuits you feel are the most influential to the final sound, and observe the resultant change.
- when you feel you have experimented enough, then experiment some more.
- measurements enable you to make sure you are on the right track, so measure.
- listen,
- don not jump into any conclusions.
- once you feel you have arrived at the final stage (hopefully after at the least a couple of ales - Mr. John Brown 9 years), start the pcb process (CAD).
- listen,
- do not not jump into any conclusions.
As I pointed out earlier, non of this is necessary.
The Tent Dac is an absolute reference in DAC design implementation. There are many things that can be taken to the extreme, but the design foundation is solid and is competently documented.
Has any of you had the opportunity to take a look at the documents and design implementation of Tent DAC which is kindly provided to the public by Tent Labs?
Tent Labs Dac main pcb will take an experienced Electronics Design Engineer with solid knowledge and experience more than a year to produce, if a min of 3 hours are invested daily in the design.
Add another year to debug, make corrections and test.
Then go back to experimenting and listening tests on the final assembled PCB.
After at least a couple of more ales, you will arrive at something similar to Tentlabs DAC design.
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Thanks. Hé you are not an expert but said many usefull things about the dividers; if all the non experts have an equal participation at the end we can have something...
But you need a more carefull reading. All what I say is a place between a crap DAC Kit & AMR could exist. And you can have a reference DAC as well...
So you say that 95 % here are loosing their time... for 5% of sellers...Maybe.
Not fun for all those guys who share. I think positiv : their work is nearer for some of them to the professionals product than the crap kits but with the same cost price. The better of two worlds but with its limit of course we are not naives and have in mind what you wrote. but maybe it's not the place for a collaborative project but just to share tips for debuging...
But I have to say that I just see people finding some excuses not to try for instance and run away !
The "expert" theory is a disease. There is a TV serie also about that ! If we have to wait to be the pharaho alone... well we will never have a pyramid.
here I just begged for a fun collaborative projects around a 30 old chip for better than the last ten years kit !
Chineese are smarter they make and sell DACs in their kitchen ! they have my respect !
But you need a more carefull reading. All what I say is a place between a crap DAC Kit & AMR could exist. And you can have a reference DAC as well...
So you say that 95 % here are loosing their time... for 5% of sellers...Maybe.
Not fun for all those guys who share. I think positiv : their work is nearer for some of them to the professionals product than the crap kits but with the same cost price. The better of two worlds but with its limit of course we are not naives and have in mind what you wrote. but maybe it's not the place for a collaborative project but just to share tips for debuging...
But I have to say that I just see people finding some excuses not to try for instance and run away !
The "expert" theory is a disease. There is a TV serie also about that ! If we have to wait to be the pharaho alone... well we will never have a pyramid.
here I just begged for a fun collaborative projects around a 30 old chip for better than the last ten years kit !
Chineese are smarter they make and sell DACs in their kitchen ! they have my respect !
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In the light of the above, it seems to me that at best I may arrive at the sound quality of the Tent DAC, after a long time and a lot of money.
Therefore I withdraw the idea.
First, I see no benefit in such a project.
Then, I have no money to spare, so I cannot do it.
Also, although I'm retired, I'm producing/directing a documentary movie, into where I'd best direct my time and energy.
That shouldn't stop anyone else from embracing the idea.
hi thanks for you advise, alexxis. i will give i2s attenuation another consideration
did you ever try 1541 in differential mode? if so does it benefit as much as 1543 in same situation? marantz 7 is differential 1541 and is said to rival cd77 in overall performance, subjective, according to audiogon members heh.
did you ever try 1541 in differential mode? if so does it benefit as much as 1543 in same situation? marantz 7 is differential 1541 and is said to rival cd77 in overall performance, subjective, according to audiogon members heh.
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You, like myself, are looking for a fairly affordable solution to Audio Nirvana.
So Yes, in your case, and based on your previously stated objective, you are right.
I believe this is a logical conslusion based on facts and reason.
Many of the wonderful people here at diyaudio are not only interested in the end result, but more so in the process of getting there (learning electronics, building, spending 10s and 10s of thousands of dollars etc).
I agree if one belongs to the second group.
Hi PreSapian
As mentined earlier, the final perceived sound quality is not only dependent on the chips, but how they are implemented in the design.
A competently executed TDA1543 in Single Ended mode would seriously outperform a poorly executed Dual Differentital TDA1541A S double crown with the most expensive components used.
I started working on the TDA15xx many years ago. Differential setup was was one the first 'mods' i tried.
Your question is therefore not easy to answer to.
This is highly unlikely, at best. (I assume you are refereing t Marantz cd-7?)
I listened to cd-7 at a hifi show many years ago. I doesn't even come close to the sonic performance of cd-777, let alone cd-77.
Do not instantly beleive everything you read on the internet or magazines, that includes what you read here.
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