As AudioLapDance notice before, there are good hints here DAC build TDA1541A/SAA7220P/B *will take som time*
Spidf feeding or I2S feeding via USB is not really a problem by using several kits :
- Spidf to I2S from Sure electronics use W88004 with a crystal XO for hardware mode to fight a little the jitter : that is the way I use myself as I bought 2 kits. You can set up all you want : right justified or not , hardware mode or not, soldering wires or use connectors
- or Amarano if Usb to I2S.
ECDesign posted the values of attenuator resistors in several shematics before the I2S input of the TDA 1541. The problem seems more to make an efficient pcb around the TDA :
- if not drawed with a software, maybe the use of things like a double layer bare pcb design board which is around 9 dollars at Mouser/Digikey.
About the analogs and crossed digital signals : can we do use a shunt with thin wire to cross the digital signal (in the 3D spirit of T Loesh when he talked about a hand made gnd pcb around the TDA chip for caps and TL431 ?).
The tube output is simple to do without pcb or just with a drilled pcb board if just the passive I/V with a very good resistor as the Rhopoint Thoersten advised (ECdesigns uses the same) : they are sold to the Brand Vishay precision group at Mouser/Digikey.
But here still remain the problems of good multi PS and their Layout for the TDA 1541.
Tubes are dangerous for noobs like me (but very good kits exists and ad hoc for the TDA1541)
Without good skill : we have to give up the very promising path that George hifi with the AD844 or others like J Didden with other video OPA gave for I/V mode (because stack 3 by channel is not easy I surmise).
Any good drawner here for a new pcb with micrel soic LDO reg for the TDA chip and all those considerations ? Note than Johnfrom ECdesign offer its design for little shunt LDO which can be construct on a little PCB for a 3D layout near the TDA like Tentslab allready sells (and excellent DC/DC converter for good isolation.
What is the best design way T. Loesch use today for tubes around the TDA : a telefunken tubes and an other one . I'm sure a good discrete design à la SEN/CEN is not a waste of time both....
Well, not a standalone kit today yet, but more solutions with multi pcbs than ten years ago... I want to try but not sure th eresult will be good as digital seems to be a very more difficult world than analog.
You OP is lucky : you have an USB imput in your DA777 as well ! I think around 2500 dollars the price of it is not too low if you have the money to save 10 years of personal listening (its important as well, don't we all love music here ?)
Maybe our friends from russia here can help as they use AD844 for many years !
Maybe a new project open thread in this spirit : a new pcb design with the use of allready made around it for saving money... I have not the knowledge for open it...
i notice there are more and more web sites to draw and edit pcbs at low price ( I was not able to find one in France but saw at least two in USA !) ! With a NonOverSampling design : I think such a project is possible here as there are a lot of gentle people whom offer and share both their design and knowledge
Spidf feeding or I2S feeding via USB is not really a problem by using several kits :
- Spidf to I2S from Sure electronics use W88004 with a crystal XO for hardware mode to fight a little the jitter : that is the way I use myself as I bought 2 kits. You can set up all you want : right justified or not , hardware mode or not, soldering wires or use connectors
- or Amarano if Usb to I2S.
ECDesign posted the values of attenuator resistors in several shematics before the I2S input of the TDA 1541. The problem seems more to make an efficient pcb around the TDA :
- if not drawed with a software, maybe the use of things like a double layer bare pcb design board which is around 9 dollars at Mouser/Digikey.
About the analogs and crossed digital signals : can we do use a shunt with thin wire to cross the digital signal (in the 3D spirit of T Loesh when he talked about a hand made gnd pcb around the TDA chip for caps and TL431 ?).
The tube output is simple to do without pcb or just with a drilled pcb board if just the passive I/V with a very good resistor as the Rhopoint Thoersten advised (ECdesigns uses the same) : they are sold to the Brand Vishay precision group at Mouser/Digikey.
But here still remain the problems of good multi PS and their Layout for the TDA 1541.
Tubes are dangerous for noobs like me (but very good kits exists and ad hoc for the TDA1541)
Without good skill : we have to give up the very promising path that George hifi with the AD844 or others like J Didden with other video OPA gave for I/V mode (because stack 3 by channel is not easy I surmise).
Any good drawner here for a new pcb with micrel soic LDO reg for the TDA chip and all those considerations ? Note than Johnfrom ECdesign offer its design for little shunt LDO which can be construct on a little PCB for a 3D layout near the TDA like Tentslab allready sells (and excellent DC/DC converter for good isolation.
What is the best design way T. Loesch use today for tubes around the TDA : a telefunken tubes and an other one . I'm sure a good discrete design à la SEN/CEN is not a waste of time both....
Well, not a standalone kit today yet, but more solutions with multi pcbs than ten years ago... I want to try but not sure th eresult will be good as digital seems to be a very more difficult world than analog.
You OP is lucky : you have an USB imput in your DA777 as well ! I think around 2500 dollars the price of it is not too low if you have the money to save 10 years of personal listening (its important as well, don't we all love music here ?)
Maybe our friends from russia here can help as they use AD844 for many years !
Maybe a new project open thread in this spirit : a new pcb design with the use of allready made around it for saving money... I have not the knowledge for open it...
i notice there are more and more web sites to draw and edit pcbs at low price ( I was not able to find one in France but saw at least two in USA !) ! With a NonOverSampling design : I think such a project is possible here as there are a lot of gentle people whom offer and share both their design and knowledge
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You are, based on my own investigations and research, absolutley right on this point.
I put a LOT of time and effort into the TDA1541 and TDA1543 back in the 90:s and early 2000.
I arrived at more or less the same results that Mr Loesch has freely published.
I have also come to respect the extensive work of Mr John Brown on the subject, even though we
donot agree on many things;-D
I beleive your CD-777 is even better than the DP-777 that I listened to and really enjoyed.
If I were you, I would be very happy spinning discs on your wonderfull CD-777.
Yes, it needs to be slightly modified since the PCM63 DAC used is not pin compatible with the TDA1541.
PCM63 is imho a very competent DA chip.
This DAC Design is an absolute reference in HW Implementation of an Audio DA Converter.
Using this PCB as a base + a modified TDA1541 board would blow off most of the competition.
For additional improvement, further (small) mods can be done on the TDA1541 periphery.
hi alexxis, what are some tricks for the 1541 that we novices can aptly incorporate into our spawns? i've tried dem reclock on my breadboarded 1541 dac, and liked it. also tried ecdesign's i2s attenuator, and did not like it.
just wondering if i'm missing out anything major.
Side by side with the DP-777 (and not CD-77), Tent DAC shared more sonic qualities than differences.
I have the TENT DAC OS version and it was just as effortless and sweet as the DP-777 in NOS, but with more extension at the freq extremes.
With the other High res DAC chip inside the DP-777, they were very close, but the Tent DAC was slightly more preferable (more relaxed).
Thank you PreSapian. Being in the company of so many competent people here, I really dont consider myself as being any type of expert.
I have put considerable time, money and effort into TDA15xx chips. I would say you are on the right track.
- Start with the DEM reclocking.
- IIS attenuators WITHOUT the low pass filter caps (important)
- use 10uF ceramic caps on all DEM coupling.
- DONOT parallell caps on PSU lines. Just use a very good, LARGE value (ex: OSCON > 470uF) on PSU legs.
that a good answer for people who are thinking that such dac chip is better than an other one. Here the design and Layout is important... not only the best suposed dac chip of the moment.
DP-777 have no TDA1541 inside, nore the Tentslab which play with the 1704 dac chip because nore PCM63 left (if i understood the story).
Did you already listen to the AMR big brother CP-77 with TDA1541 side by side with the little brother CD-777 ? Some says he doesn't fight the CD_777 by a large margin ?
At the end it's funny to see that finding an all in one shematic 30 years later with the TDA1541 is still difficult !
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That is actually very close to my findings.
Perpherial circuitry and implementation (Layout) seems to be more important than the mere DAC chip.
However the Dac also plays a little role.
No, but the very next best thing ;-)
no, the Tent Labs Dac came with PCM63K. Since TI siezed production, Tent Labs decided to go with the PCM1704.
It is a very superior Dac, strangely, I did not like it as much as the PCM63.
Unfortunately no, however I have a lot of admiration for the work of Mr Loesch.
because I know how much time and money and efforts has gone into his research.
It was very pleasantly surprising to see how close my end resluts and conclusions were to his.
Well, TDA1541 is designed using a different type of logic (digital) devices.
They have very different characteristics.
You might say the problem is interfacing this 30 year old (38) grandfather with modern (CMOS) circuits with very different characteristics.
A lot has been learned on digital audio during this time.
TDA1541 has some problems that cannot be corrected properly, its very strength is its weakness.
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I think its strengths are still quite good and whether or not they can be corrected properly might be subject to opinion.
There seems to be a lot of opinion, perhaps even toward the mystic.. makes you wonder if theres not some dis-information out there also.
CD-77 transformed the 'Kondo' room at the Adelphi Plaza in Singapore, if you're in transit sometime, its worth the detour.
There seems to be a lot of opinion, perhaps even toward the mystic.. makes you wonder if theres not some dis-information out there also.
CD-77 transformed the 'Kondo' room at the Adelphi Plaza in Singapore, if you're in transit sometime, its worth the detour.
As mentioned earlier:
- the TDA1541 was designed using a very different type of logic family
- this type of logic is much less sensitive to less-than-optimal peripheral circuitry for performance (surrounding caps, etc)
- Interfacing this type of logic with the new type of logic (CMOS) is the interesting issue
- CMOS - High Speed CMOS - in particular, sets entirely new demands on decoupling
- another interesting point about TDA15xx chips is that lots of the knowledge today was unkown nearly 38 years ago when this DAC chip was created.
- I beleive that implementation and peripherial circuitry is of paramount importance, the DAC chips not so much. This is absolutely crazy, I know, but i am just sharing my experiences here
i believe you 100%.
- the TDA1541 was designed using a very different type of logic family
- this type of logic is much less sensitive to less-than-optimal peripheral circuitry for performance (surrounding caps, etc)
- Interfacing this type of logic with the new type of logic (CMOS) is the interesting issue
- CMOS - High Speed CMOS - in particular, sets entirely new demands on decoupling
- another interesting point about TDA15xx chips is that lots of the knowledge today was unkown nearly 38 years ago when this DAC chip was created.
- I beleive that implementation and peripherial circuitry is of paramount importance, the DAC chips not so much. This is absolutely crazy, I know, but i am just sharing my experiences here
i believe you 100%.
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Hi Alexis,
According to Thorsten, they are the same (without the transport).
Thank you.
Indeed, I am happy with it.
It makes sense to me.
From this it appears that as for now, there is no better-sounding alternative to the DP-777/ CD-777, save the CD-77.
Is that correct?
I also have a lot of admiration to Thorsten and his work, based (also) on the sound quality of his products.
He was sharing his knowledge willingly and freely for decades, perhaps without the recognition he deserves.
According to Thorsten, they are the same (without the transport).
Thank you.
Indeed, I am happy with it.
It makes sense to me.
From this it appears that as for now, there is no better-sounding alternative to the DP-777/ CD-777, save the CD-77.
Is that correct?
I also have a lot of admiration to Thorsten and his work, based (also) on the sound quality of his products.
He was sharing his knowledge willingly and freely for decades, perhaps without the recognition he deserves.
Not agree with you here with all due of respect, T. Loesch is very famous since 20 years at least and participle to the story of Audio. It is not by chance IMHO than investors trust him. He begann before the digital If I remember and with it by tweaking some of the first Philips & marantz in the second part of the 80s'. He is not alone, but his continuous efforts and his passion for Audio paid in his work.
There are peopkle like him, André Charlin, Jean Hiraga, The british speaker makers, Kaneda, Tent, (this is a non representativ list...) they are many who write and share... not only for the specialists) ... and many non famous ingeneers who contribute to the perpetual increasing quality of audio. Non forgiving the reasearch with sociology, neurology which move forward with electronic side by side for a better understanding of hearing.
behind each "legend" you have a collective effort as well, tools like DIYAUDIO in IT domain is one of those contributions
I think its time to introduce DIYA to Nasdaq
Anyboody good enough knowledged fellow here to open a thread as project manager around the TDA1541 before we get to old? To try a synthesis of the good ideas to draw and try a pcbs with the good and gifted ideas of people like Thorsten, John, Guido and all the good contributors and diyers like Alexis, Vanofonk for drawing pcbs or elses ? We could open a GB in the end for the first proto with paypall with services payments ?
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For the Nasdaq
Any ideas more Joshua ?
What we need first is a team with a non too much "technician" project manager/moderator with or whitout a little knowledge and or experience with Digital DIY : the idea is that he is not here to influence the design but here to make the walk efficient !
A good "business" project manager has to use W round trip method between the technicians managers and one shoot contributors to manage the "tempo", the egos, the dynamic between ideas, questions and answers. He must keep a "flat" character to be the judge of peace for the others, remind us the rules of games. He has also an excellent english speaking to avoid missunderstandings
Ok its no professional here and no money, we have time but as it's an enthusiast project we need a dead line (six month for the first turn of the wheel ?) and some simples rules:
- keep fun
- open but efficient : tubes or discrete what ever.
- Cheapest but good enough
- Easy for DIY : smd ok but not things to much exotic like programing devices
- help of already kit around if ok in a cost perspective.
- Gifted for DIY but proof for commercial interests : a licence mode has to be founded: here we share our time and enthusiasm only)
- to be continued
Am I naive, but You Joshua is IMHO wise enough to be this project manager ?
Don't you want to open the following thread of this first one and beginn with an invitaion list ?
Any ideas more Joshua ?
What we need first is a team with a non too much "technician" project manager/moderator with or whitout a little knowledge and or experience with Digital DIY : the idea is that he is not here to influence the design but here to make the walk efficient !
A good "business" project manager has to use W round trip method between the technicians managers and one shoot contributors to manage the "tempo", the egos, the dynamic between ideas, questions and answers. He must keep a "flat" character to be the judge of peace for the others, remind us the rules of games. He has also an excellent english speaking to avoid missunderstandings
Ok its no professional here and no money, we have time but as it's an enthusiast project we need a dead line (six month for the first turn of the wheel ?) and some simples rules:
- keep fun
- open but efficient : tubes or discrete what ever.
- Cheapest but good enough
- Easy for DIY : smd ok but not things to much exotic like programing devices
- help of already kit around if ok in a cost perspective.
- Gifted for DIY but proof for commercial interests : a licence mode has to be founded: here we share our time and enthusiasm only)
- to be continued
Am I naive, but You Joshua is IMHO wise enough to be this project manager ?
Don't you want to open the following thread of this first one and beginn with an invitaion list ?
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I would like to, but there are many reasons why it will be non efficient :
- My english is bad and tooks me some time to write it (ans it stays bad !)
- I am to much "springfull"l when I'am not in a professional project... not flat at all with enthusiasts projects"
- I need personnal time as I'm looking for a real professional project to eat.
totally incompatible for me, but I participate as I impulse the idea... Many shy and fantastics fellows here... I'm afraid to have not those both qualities !
To be honnest I think you have not my constraint, do the prove for a time you are TDA1541 lover enough.
You have to switch between the asking world to the giving world... that's all ! You can do it ! (without basketts !)
And you have a ref player to make the AB test possible !
- My english is bad and tooks me some time to write it (ans it stays bad !)
- I am to much "springfull"l when I'am not in a professional project... not flat at all with enthusiasts projects"
- I need personnal time as I'm looking for a real professional project to eat.
totally incompatible for me, but I participate as I impulse the idea... Many shy and fantastics fellows here... I'm afraid to have not those both qualities !
To be honnest I think you have not my constraint, do the prove for a time you are TDA1541 lover enough.
You have to switch between the asking world to the giving world... that's all ! You can do it ! (without basketts !)
And you have a ref player to make the AB test possible !
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I'd love giving, though I'm not sure I can.
The idea will rise, or fall, on finding a proper and good PCB designer.
Of course, it will take some investment, for the circuit should be built and tested, possibly few times, prior to a GB offer. I'm willing to make the necessary investment, but I don't know an appropriate PCB designer.
The idea will rise, or fall, on finding a proper and good PCB designer.
Of course, it will take some investment, for the circuit should be built and tested, possibly few times, prior to a GB offer. I'm willing to make the necessary investment, but I don't know an appropriate PCB designer.
We are lucky her as we have many people ablle to draw pcbs and others who have knowledge. They have not to be the same : this a project, people can invite themselves. money is not a problem : did you notice that nowadays it's easy to edit a pcb as a test with internet Site : We will launch a GB !
step 1 : project manager as OP to launch invitations
step 2 : answers (we hope so)
step 3 : edit he rules and licence (many experienced people here)
step 4 : we will need back up as it's a long task (6 months) everybody is welcome.
Please follow....
step 1 : project manager as OP to launch invitations
step 2 : answers (we hope so)
step 3 : edit he rules and licence (many experienced people here)
step 4 : we will need back up as it's a long task (6 months) everybody is welcome.
Please follow....
First: total admiration to Thorsten.
Interesting idea... for my limited experience I could participate to the workgroup.
I'm working on a "funny" IV tube output stage for the 1541A, so I could share my results.
Also, I'm working on a very low phase noise oscillator as the master clock for the digital to analog conversion, using very good quality crystals.
But in that case we should think to a "all in one machine", transport and DAC, or at least ASRC + DAC.
If the project start, please let me know. Now I'm planning to test the output stage with a Red Baron, but I'm very interested on something better.
Interesting idea... for my limited experience I could participate to the workgroup.
I'm working on a "funny" IV tube output stage for the 1541A, so I could share my results.
Also, I'm working on a very low phase noise oscillator as the master clock for the digital to analog conversion, using very good quality crystals.
But in that case we should think to a "all in one machine", transport and DAC, or at least ASRC + DAC.
If the project start, please let me know. Now I'm planning to test the output stage with a Red Baron, but I'm very interested on something better.
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