Interesting. 
I'd be tempted to put the Eminator in the Karlsonator, just because of the name. I wonder if it was also inspired by doppel bock beer? Also, the low end roll off curve looks a little more room friendly. For shear destructive havoc though, the Eminator and K15 do appear to be a match. You might lose some ceiling sheet rock. Call it the Devastator?
At one point I actually did try my 12cx (and Beta12LT) in a K12. It does work and it's pretty smooth -- much like your prediction, but it sounded a little bland and anemic, IIRC.
I'd be tempted to put the Eminator in the Karlsonator, just because of the name. I wonder if it was also inspired by doppel bock beer? Also, the low end roll off curve looks a little more room friendly. For shear destructive havoc though, the Eminator and K15 do appear to be a match. You might lose some ceiling sheet rock. Call it the Devastator?
At one point I actually did try my 12cx (and Beta12LT) in a K12. It does work and it's pretty smooth -- much like your prediction, but it sounded a little bland and anemic, IIRC.
They rattled up to about 4 or 5k IIRC, but they were pretty mediocre in that range. Also, the 'horn' transition into the driver cone is poorly done, IMO.
My pair used the then recommended APT50 for HF. Those APT were excellent units, but a poor choice for the 12cx. A 1" comp driver like the PSD and a lower crossover would be much better.
My pair used the then recommended APT50 for HF. Those APT were excellent units, but a poor choice for the 12cx. A 1" comp driver like the PSD and a lower crossover would be much better.
Thanks so much guys, very helpful.
Also I think I found the K15 plans:
Also I think I found the K15 plans:
Anton,
It's OT but since you asked, it would be great if you could simulate the Karlson aperture type speakers: K15, Karlsonator, K-tube, Klam, etc. The first one would be the K15 with a nice low Qts driver like an Eminence Kappa 15A. Here are the plans that I used to model mine in Akabak: The Karlson Homepage
This image may be useful for you to help figure out the missing dimensions, however the two are not exactly alike:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Although I think the plan from 1954 is the definitive one, I just find the one by Ulfman in metric units to be easiest to implement.
1954 plan:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This one will be interesting to see what you get.
Good luck!
X
In order to keep this thread on track, I propose you post the results in this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/237948-speaker-kicks-butt-large-spaces.html
if you built K15 then you could always make an adapter plate to hold Beta12cx.
here's the official plan from January 1954 issue of Radio & Television News
http://i.imgur.com/oRygnBt.png
you could put Beta12cx in K12 - the vent matters a tiny bit - on sine wave, the distributed slit vent distorts horribly around fb but most music or old style music is/was thankfully of transient nature. You could build K12 with a changeable port panel to go between the slit/~aperiodic and a single less lossy port.
12LTA is ok in K12 - PYM1298 had an 80oz motor, lower qts and imo
a sharper "attack" capability when pushed that doesn't show in a simple FR.
one builder ported K12 as such - interestingly, he left the rear of the Celestion
midrange speakers open and reported that transient response was great and that
the whole cabinet much better than direct radiators - the reason for the rebates
were to include metal touring trim
Karlson brought back the full width rear shelf in a kit K12 which came with porting instructions -
the rear shelf might be made shorter with a bigger gap then tune this aspect by "ear" using percussive
tracks - maybe something like Joe Flick's slapped upright bass, or a good jazz trio with upright bass and drumkit
if two side position vents were used, then a K12 could become an "X12" with an internally mounted K-tube - not
sure if that would fit with the full width rear shelf or not (?)
"3rd K12"
my 1960's factory K12 particleboard pair have a 30 degree baffle angle, split rear shelf/braces, 4-slot vent and sound very good
here they are before shipping to me
here's the official plan from January 1954 issue of Radio & Television News
http://i.imgur.com/oRygnBt.png
you could put Beta12cx in K12 - the vent matters a tiny bit - on sine wave, the distributed slit vent distorts horribly around fb but most music or old style music is/was thankfully of transient nature. You could build K12 with a changeable port panel to go between the slit/~aperiodic and a single less lossy port.
12LTA is ok in K12 - PYM1298 had an 80oz motor, lower qts and imo
a sharper "attack" capability when pushed that doesn't show in a simple FR.
one builder ported K12 as such - interestingly, he left the rear of the Celestion
midrange speakers open and reported that transient response was great and that
the whole cabinet much better than direct radiators - the reason for the rebates
were to include metal touring trim
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Karlson brought back the full width rear shelf in a kit K12 which came with porting instructions -
the rear shelf might be made shorter with a bigger gap then tune this aspect by "ear" using percussive
tracks - maybe something like Joe Flick's slapped upright bass, or a good jazz trio with upright bass and drumkit
if two side position vents were used, then a K12 could become an "X12" with an internally mounted K-tube - not
sure if that would fit with the full width rear shelf or not (?)
"3rd K12"
my 1960's factory K12 particleboard pair have a 30 degree baffle angle, split rear shelf/braces, 4-slot vent and sound very good
here they are before shipping to me
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X- is it the relatively low (~38Hz) tuning of the Karlsonator12 causing the rather high rolloff with Beta12cx? - can the just the vent height be altered easily in your Karlsonator model to see effects of a bigger area vent?
here's a rare "3rd" K12 picture nabbed from auction some time ago - it came unported
- "where" would you locate a single port on the port board? - would you have the port flush with the rear shelf? - centered?
Here's that version of K12 factory vented for $$$$ Tannoy "Red" - did K distribute the vent to improve subjective midrange? -
- weaken subjective "thickness"?
here's a rare "3rd" K12 picture nabbed from auction some time ago - it came unported
- "where" would you locate a single port on the port board? - would you have the port flush with the rear shelf? - centered?
Here's that version of K12 factory vented for $$$$ Tannoy "Red" - did K distribute the vent to improve subjective midrange? -
- weaken subjective "thickness"?
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my 1960's factory K12 particleboard pair have a 30 degree baffle angle, split rear shelf/braces, 4-slot vent and sound very good
here they are before shipping to me
This picture of inside back is super helpful. I was having a difficult time imagining it from the plans alone.
in the January 1954 Radio and Television News article, John Karlson warned against scaling K15 by 0.8 - imo that isn't a much of a real problem - but it might be helpful to keep the front shelf short then adjust "by" ear/measurements by stacking on pieces - the front shelf in smaller couplers can keep some mids and highs from the upper half of the front section - Karlson never used the front shelf in smaller cabinets.
A 0.75 scale K15 would be pretty close in outside dimensions to factory K12s.
the cabinet below started tuning with 2-3"IDx3" abs vents - then I later plugged them and created a K15 style vent which probably sounded better. I ran these with Sammi 12s, weak Allied-Knight-Jensen, JBL D123 - wish I had kept one for reference - mdf was
too heavy when carrying for bass guitar - 5/8" Baltic birch might be stiff enough with braces (?) - Arauco would do well but
seems to dent and come apart rather easily. My friend who built this probably did a good thing with the starting gap.
A 0.75 scale K15 would be pretty close in outside dimensions to factory K12s.
the cabinet below started tuning with 2-3"IDx3" abs vents - then I later plugged them and created a K15 style vent which probably sounded better. I ran these with Sammi 12s, weak Allied-Knight-Jensen, JBL D123 - wish I had kept one for reference - mdf was
too heavy when carrying for bass guitar - 5/8" Baltic birch might be stiff enough with braces (?) - Arauco would do well but
seems to dent and come apart rather easily. My friend who built this probably did a good thing with the starting gap.
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Im now reading about ULF Karlson in another thread (you guys wrote it in Jan 2014). Who knows, maybe I'll go with a folded horn for the two 15's if they happen to be appropriate drivers for such an endeavor.
I think my goal is to have at least 50Hz to 250Hz covered well by at most one driver, without much group delay, so I can feel that slap.
I think that CX-12 should be able to do that. In fact I believe it should cover 50 to 2500 alright if I'm understanding correctly. Then of course ASD:1001 plays from there to the top octave.
BUT, I think I'd High Pass the CX-12, and then I'd want to rely on the 15 inch speakers to cover from 50hz or less down.
Does this sound like a good plan? It looks like the K15 with Eminator 15" won't really reach down that low, or maybe room gain will help it enough? (It doesn't have to get to 20hz or anything crazy, but I'd hope that the Eminator 15" could F3 at 35 or less with the right enclosure)??
I feel somewhat foolish because maybe I'm looking at "full range" ideas, but I'm thinking in terms of multi-way speakers. To me, it's about efficiency too, trying to get the most out of my 40 watts (per driver/ i.e. bi-amp or tri-amp stereo)
I'm leaning towards building both, but I feel that there's a lot of frequency overlap, and I don't want to smear the image.
I think my goal is to have at least 50Hz to 250Hz covered well by at most one driver, without much group delay, so I can feel that slap.
I think that CX-12 should be able to do that. In fact I believe it should cover 50 to 2500 alright if I'm understanding correctly. Then of course ASD:1001 plays from there to the top octave.
BUT, I think I'd High Pass the CX-12, and then I'd want to rely on the 15 inch speakers to cover from 50hz or less down.
Does this sound like a good plan? It looks like the K15 with Eminator 15" won't really reach down that low, or maybe room gain will help it enough? (It doesn't have to get to 20hz or anything crazy, but I'd hope that the Eminator 15" could F3 at 35 or less with the right enclosure)??
I feel somewhat foolish because maybe I'm looking at "full range" ideas, but I'm thinking in terms of multi-way speakers. To me, it's about efficiency too, trying to get the most out of my 40 watts (per driver/ i.e. bi-amp or tri-amp stereo)
I'm leaning towards building both, but I feel that there's a lot of frequency overlap, and I don't want to smear the image.
35Hz in K15 would be pretty far down - you could tune K15 low per Exemplar's subwoofer but it would probably not be as kicky and
need to crossover around 80Hz
For subwoofer duty, you would port K15 with two 3" right angle pvs elbows and apply a bit of boost around 30Hz.
the mod will fit perfectly in K15's vent on an adapter plate without any destruction if you use the original 4.5" K15 vent spec.
K15 stock vented has a lot of usable "kick" - more than a lot of horn or any reflex - 35Hz extension would help pipe organ pedals.
you might make a tapped pipe for the Eminator15 - "tb46" is real good at that design as are others in these forums - or a MLTL
with the high qts University 312, one owner of the rare unported K12s found it useful to "parallel" vent with a big aperiodic vent on the rear panel
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
need to crossover around 80Hz
For subwoofer duty, you would port K15 with two 3" right angle pvs elbows and apply a bit of boost around 30Hz.
the mod will fit perfectly in K15's vent on an adapter plate without any destruction if you use the original 4.5" K15 vent spec.
K15 stock vented has a lot of usable "kick" - more than a lot of horn or any reflex - 35Hz extension would help pipe organ pedals.
you might make a tapped pipe for the Eminator15 - "tb46" is real good at that design as are others in these forums - or a MLTL
with the high qts University 312, one owner of the rare unported K12s found it useful to "parallel" vent with a big aperiodic vent on the rear panel
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I don't know how much "hit" the Eminator15 would have in K15 - some of that is from the midrange balance - K15 can do jaw-dropping transients with the right speakers and not run out of excursion. Eminator is kinda heavy - no worse than say a D/K140 JBL but qts is favorable.
on old pop music with good speakers, K15 is hard to beat - its also up to rap and hiphop at club levels - brace the rear panel and use two struts from the front shelf to the wings - 3/4" dowel pieces are good
you might have enough "hit" just from your Beta12cx in K15 -? tweak the vent and rear lowpass shelf - use an adapter so the 15 cab be also used.
on old pop music with good speakers, K15 is hard to beat - its also up to rap and hiphop at club levels - brace the rear panel and use two struts from the front shelf to the wings - 3/4" dowel pieces are good
you might have enough "hit" just from your Beta12cx in K15 -? tweak the vent and rear lowpass shelf - use an adapter so the 15 cab be also used.
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Here is the Beta 12cx in a K12:
The large Vas and moderate Qts of the Beta12cx would require you to increase the cabinet width to 24in in order to get a flat bass shelf like this:
My suggestion is now to actually go with the K12 as you suggested earlier. Good thing I re-ran the sims. Although if you are good with an f3 of 64Hz, the Karlsonator 12 can work too. The two will sound different with the K12 being able to achieve higher SPL due to better cone loading and have snappier transients.
I thought you were going to be helping. Now I just have more trade offs to consider!
(joke)
I really appreciate you running all the sims X. As far as what I should build first, I think in my mind, it makes sense to build for the CX-12 first. If I'm right, a lot of the transient hit I'm looking for occurs above 60Hz and more around 100Hz anyway. I'm thinking the CX12 may have an advantage here. Would you agree?
So the K12 would be snappier, that's what I'm looking for.
Could the K12 similarly be widened to get a flat bass shelf like that?
I'm guess that in any case, tuning lower trades off a little punch for the lower frequency?
Thanks again for making the sims. I'm going to focus on finishing the DAC so that I can start building one of these Karlson boxes sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Here is the Emminator in a 1.25x scaled Karlsonator - not too shabby either:
This above looks good too for the Eminator 15".
Then I could keep the CX12 in it's sealed box where it does superfantastic vocals from 100hz on up.
decisions.......
This is a neat idea too. Maybe I'll just have to build a few.
Can you get two cabs from one 4' x 8' sheet?
one K15 can take a bit over 1 4'x8' sheet - like a sheet plus a scrap for shelf - I think you might yield 2-K12 size K-couplers (?) from one 4'x8' sheet if the dims are altered a bit - the so called "Dutch K12" IIRC is a bit less high (?)
- have to look for the Dutch K12 plans - it had a very large area 3-slot vent but I assume tuning due to the front aperture was still in the ballpark of classic Karlson K12s (~63Hz or so)
Here's the Dutch K12 plan at Job Ulfman's excellent Karlson site
http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/Plans/new12in.gif
here's a mini acrylic K based of the Dutch version - the port panel is perpendicular
rather than at a 10 degree forwards cant like Karlson's ~1956 K12 (which appeared in the July 1958
issue of Popular Mechanics)
- have to look for the Dutch K12 plans - it had a very large area 3-slot vent but I assume tuning due to the front aperture was still in the ballpark of classic Karlson K12s (~63Hz or so)
Here's the Dutch K12 plan at Job Ulfman's excellent Karlson site
http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/Plans/new12in.gif
here's a mini acrylic K based of the Dutch version - the port panel is perpendicular
rather than at a 10 degree forwards cant like Karlson's ~1956 K12 (which appeared in the July 1958
issue of Popular Mechanics)
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That horn body looks like it would have a more even dispersion than the hole currently in the late model cx12. Some complain about the current design, but my ears must not be that good. I used to hear a slight shift in Diana Krawl's voice (or Norah Jones) as they went up or down in their pitch of singing. Since I inverted the tweeter, it's not a problem for me anymore. Others milage may vary, I'm sure there's variables that are unknown to me.here's one of my coax - not sure if this is my 1114 Martin (made by Eminence) or an Eminence C12cx - these have 80oz magnets and modest voice coil overhang - I have one of these in my klam12
for fun you might try a cardboard lens like this JBL in front of your 12cx - dunno how well it would work
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachme...shaped-hole-karlson-eon615_hero_nogrill_r-jpg
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/attachme...shaped-hole-karlson-eon615_hero_nogrill_r-jpg
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