advantages of karlsonator

[vacuphile]

i am trying to find advantages of karlsonator design as compared against traditional sealed, vented and TL boxes. also what to know what type of drivers (TS params) are suitable for these?

The main advantage is that you don't need other effect boxes (WAVAC tube amp etc) to get a unique sound.

 

[freddi]

that's a very good point - here's a snippet from diyVladimir's post on the sound of Dayton's PS220 fullrange driver in the old (1954) Karlsonette cabinet

to my ears, an old recording like Johnny Cash's "Get Rhythym" played on one K12 with FE206EN sounds very exciting and like a good live performance - my 12CX in K12 sound good on a wide variety of material including harp and soprano voice. Some (dull mainly) drivers will not balance in a Karlson.

I'd like to sometime have a Karlsonator 8 for comparisons to K12

diyVladimir on 1954 style K12 with PS220

By posting in this thread, I just wanted to let anyone interested in PS220 that they sound pretty good in Karlsons (and in my room). No measurement can describe that sound - the closest would be to say that it sounds like the "loudness" is built into the speaker. The sound just fills the whole room and you can really feel it, regardless of where you stand. Imaging is unbelievable. Bass is strong, punchy and starts hammering somewhere around 60Hz (thanks to cabinets) while the highs are sparkling, due to PS220. Classical music sounds terrific. Again ... there are few audible peaks/dips so if you are looking for a technically perfect speaker, go for MLTL.

 

[freddi]

a quick diameter transition will probably make a K-tube rough - here's a 1.875" x 9" long tube by Carl which has an internal scattering (?) section vs a one inch diameter thinwall pvc tube. Johny Holiday's X15 cabinet had what appeared to be a 1.15" diameter K-tube as opposed to the 1.875"x7.25" tube used in my samples of Karlson's X15 (it sounds very good despite not measuring smooth) - so Karlson was clearly experimenting with K-tube sizes and venting technique (some X15 had de-Q-ing holes flanking the main vent- one had a large rectangular vent which probably led to the spinoffs by Transylvania Power Co. , KK-Audio, Acoustic Control, and others)

for some reason, I think that little short stub I added to the one inch diameter tube introduced a notch as similar was seen on a brass tube done the same way.

as far as length, we see Farber uses a lot to get alignment with their midrange horn - due to camera angles, I cannot tell the proportional length of the slot - any guess ?? - I briefly tried extended tubes on top of my 18" K-coupler and inside a 15" klam-projector

here's a short video of the klam15 with an extended K-tube krudely krammed down its coaxial horn's throat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupb8X6iZ6I

below is a Russian forum's speaker - I'm guessing that 's dome tweeter recessed into the base with a very short K-tube waveguide
- - one could take some paper, tape, scissors and give such things a try

 

[freddi]

I simply loved a plain old CTS lemon squeezer piezo on top of my Karlsonator 12 when running an Eminence 12LTA - plus Nirvana's Super10 was very good and needed no tweeter - neither did the double-whizzer Fane but the Fane's qt was a bit high for the cabinet - that said, it could play hip hop bass drops pretty well. I did not try to compensate for the high q by trying any stuffing.

AUDIOPHILE FIELD-COIL SPEAKERS | Wolf von Langa

here's what I assume is a field coil compression driver with K-tube

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[Ricren]

Anyhow, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

You're absolutely right. But you know which is the "eye" that matters in my living room? Not mine.(insert an smiling emoticon here)

I'll put the karlsonator on my list of future projectst, after finishing the Cornus and trying some flat panels with exciters.

 

[xrk971]

That Wolf field coil stuff looks very cool. Very Heavy Metal. Cool as it is, what does a field coil offer over a bunch of Nd magnets clamped together in a similar way the frame on the field coils here are made?

 

[freddi]

really can't say as the last field coil speaker I remember well was a Zenith radio with a dry-rotted 10" speaker - - - in high end audio, field coil drivers seem to be prized - Cogent uses them - also Cogent likes K15

6moons audio reviews: Hornographic Pursuits I

the little cheap Tymphany compression driver might be nice for some K-tube applications.

 

[AlexQS]

Thanks for clarifying the dates for K's Freddi. I picked '55 for some reason - probably the date of the famous Popular Science article with the plans drawn out.

Coherence,
The Karlsonator is a totally different animal. It is a mass loaded tapered quarter wave tube (ML-TQWT) with an aperiodic Karlson band pass coupler.

With proper simulation, the K'nator scales very well for a wide variety of drivers. Pick one one I will see what I can do. Just look for moderate Qts.

Hey Mr. X,

I have a pair of Eminence CX-12. I think this may be a good fit for Karlsonator. I think Freddi or one of you already did it with good results, but I'm not sure if it was CX-10 or CX-12 that was used.

I also have some Eminence Emenitator 2515. Qts is 37 IIRC, and Fs 28. Might a 15" driver such as this work in a Karlsonator? I'm thinking of this for near subwoofer duty. I don't need to go super low, I just hope for something clean and snappy. I hear about the hit and immediacy of Karlsonator. I'm very intrigued.

By the way, I have miniDSP 2x8 for XO. I'm wondering if I could make a k'nator for the CX-12, and one for the 15", stack the two boxes so they are "as one", and then DSP a crossover between them? Yeah, I won't be offended if that sounds like nuts, let me know.

If the CX-12 works, which plans? I found in the Karlsonator proper thread a link that goes to some pictures (plans) saved on a Google drive or something. Would those need to be modified or scaled for CX12 or the 15" I have?

Also, thank you very much. Much of what I've been able to learn about this came from you and a few others. Appreciate all the knowledge you've been able to share after building a room full of them.

AlexQS

Link to T/S of above mentioned drivers
2515: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/EM_2515.pdf
Cx-12: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_12CX.pdf

 

[freddi]

re: Beta12cx - I'd guess it would be cheerful with say ASD1001S in the stock Karlosnator 12 and reach reasonably low. Also, it would probably be happy in ~0.8 or a bit larger scaled K15 - it might need close to a two cubic foot rear chamber in a conventional Karlson. (X can figure that out)

 

[xrk971]

The moderate Qts of a Beta 12cx is more suited to the Karlsonator. I have simulated it before and it looks good as the stock K'nator 12. Should reach a solid 40Hz with decent sensitivity.

 

[AlexQS]

re: Beta12cx - I'd guess it would be cheerful with say ASD1001S in the stock Karlosnator 12 and reach reasonably low. Also, it would probably be happy in ~0.8 or a bit larger scaled K15 - it might need close to a two cubic foot rear chamber in a conventional Karlson. (X can figure that out)

Thanks Freddi, I have ASD:1001 also. I really like it, but I want to build a different box to compare it to, and for fun.

I'll keep reading, and hopefully X will know about the rear chamber.

Alex

 

[xrk971]

I think you should go for the Karlsonator rather than modify the rear chamber of a K12 for the Beta 12cx. Are you really bent on trying the Beta 12cx in a K12?

 

[AlexQS]

I think you should go for the Karlsonator rather than modify the rear chamber of a K12 for the Beta 12cx. Are you really bent on trying the Beta 12cx in a K12?

No not bent on that at all. So is the standard Karlsonator plan that I should follow the one I found on Greg B's google link?

 

[freddi]

the Karlsonator has deeper reach - would like to see a sim of Beta12cx in an 0.8 scale K15 - had one out of spec Beta12cx in an X15 copy - measured poorly - sound on a big Taiko was amazing - thought the cone would rip and excursion was around 1/4" peak to peak - Beta 12cx in a stock K12 is a bit too cramped IIRC.

the green trace is approximate ground plane outdoors of a 1955 K12 loaded with an out of spec Beta 12cx
- can't offhand remember qts but think it was ~0.62 - placing the same 12cx in the X15 copy
made for better result. I think X15 is a bit too wide for a 12"

with regards to ground plane dips, Acoustic Control's little coupler with a large area vent
is smoother - there's no damping at all in this coupler - 115BK would make a nice substitute
for some midbass horn setups

 

[AlexQS]

I do like the green line better. I'm not surprised that CX-12 does well there. Do you have Beta CX10 in a k'nator Freddi?

X, what I'm most curious about is putting this: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/EM_2515.pdf into a k'nater, and then low-pass it at 50 ~ 60Hz or so down to as low as it will go without loosing the tightness of the hit, if you know what I mean.

I currently have the above speaker in a huge bass reflex box, and it plays loud, and low, but I'm not 100% satisfied with it. There's too much group delay I think. Maybe I need a bigger amp to make it really kick? In either case, if I put the cx12 into a k'nater, then I'll need to build a different box for the 15" also. I've been trying to learn hornresp to maybe make a tapped horn for the 15", but the learning curve seems very steep to me.

Please let me know your thoughts about a 15" Karlsonator (or K15) playing well from 60hz down.

 

[freddi]

I never put Beta10cx in GregB's Karlsonator12 but fwiw, it simmed very well in XRK971's model. I like the stronger 12" Eminence coaxial speakers somewhat more than Beta10cx and have collected them in motor size from 54oz/80oz and 109oz - if I can get the energy, then I'll mount Beta10cx in a Karlsonator 12- it should play great. So far I've run Beta10cx in a slit vent K12 and in a 0.62 scale K15 type. What crossover values are you using with Beta12cx?

 

[AlexQS]

. What crossover values are you using with Beta12cx?

My cx12 is currently in a 1.2 cu ft sealed box. Using miniDSP I tried several XO values. My fav is 2500Hz 24dB/Oct LR. I showed a dip in the response with measure mic at xo freq., until I inverted the tweeter. It's nearly flat now, and sounds very good. I also have tweeters level turned down a little to match, maybe minus 5dB IIRC. All measurements were on axis at 1 meter, in room.

 

[freddi]

get any hiss from the mini-DSP? any delays? a couple of tpa3116 with that setup should play well

 

[AlexQS]

get any hiss from the mini-DSP? any delays? a couple of tpa3116 with that setup should play well

The one I have is nanoDIGI 2x8. I can't equivocally prove it yet, but I don't believe it makes any "noise".

I do hear noise in the tweeter, but it comes from the older Harmon Kardon av receiver I have. I have a different amp, but it's not connected to the tweeter now (so I can't prove), but the 94dB woofer it's connected to doesn't make any noise. So I think the miniDSP is quiet, and as I've known for years, the HK is hissy. Terribly noticeable with the ASD:1001 high sensitivity.

Trying to keep the post short, but I have 99% of parts, and time permitting I'll have my 6 channel DAC/preamp with balanced XLR analogue outputs done in a couple weeks. -Did lots of homework on that, and I think it'll be dead quiet. Then I'll have flexability to move away from noisy H/K.

Edit: to be fair, the H/K sat outside in the shop through a couple of winters. I was surprised it worked at all when I brought it in and cleaned it up. Also, my theory about miniDSP noise complaints is that it's all about gain staging. My theory was that using miniDSP nanoDIGI, I would not have this problem, because sound quality would be dependent on the DAC on the end, and I won't pick up any noise in the digital domain. It's been a long road, I wonder if a regular miniDSP would have worked fine with proper attention to the gain stage issue; but I avoid an extra A/D & D/A conversion this way. . Sorry I got us so far off topic,.. I'm long winded.

 

[xrk971]

Hey Mr. X,

I have a pair of Eminence CX-12. I think this may be a good fit for Karlsonator. I think Freddi or one of you already did it with good results, but I'm not sure if it was CX-10 or CX-12 that was used.

I also have some Eminence Emenitator 2515. Qts is 37 IIRC, and Fs 28. Might a 15" driver such as this work in a Karlsonator? I'm thinking of this for near subwoofer duty. I don't need to go super low, I just hope for something clean and snappy. I hear about the hit and immediacy of Karlsonator. I'm very intrigued.

By the way, I have miniDSP 2x8 for XO. I'm wondering if I could make a k'nator for the CX-12, and one for the 15", stack the two boxes so they are "as one", and then DSP a crossover between them? Yeah, I won't be offended if that sounds like nuts, let me know.

If the CX-12 works, which plans? I found in the Karlsonator proper thread a link that goes to some pictures (plans) saved on a Google drive or something. Would those need to be modified or scaled for CX12 or the 15" I have?

Also, thank you very much. Much of what I've been able to learn about this came from you and a few others. Appreciate all the knowledge you've been able to share after building a room full of them.

AlexQS

Link to T/S of above mentioned drivers
2515: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/EM_2515.pdf
Cx-12: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_12CX.pdf

Here is the Beta 12cx in a K12:

Here is the Beta 12cx in a Karlsonator (full scale 12in per GregB's drawing):

It has an early but very shallow bass roll off behavior, which may particularly match a room's gain profile very well and have a very hifi sound with deep bass. But in open space may sound anemic.

So my memory was wrong, I was thinking of the Beta 10cx which gives a nice reach to 40Hz. The large Vas and moderate Qts of the Beta12cx would require you to increase the cabinet width to 24in in order to get a flat bass shelf like this:

My suggestion is now to actually go with the K12 as you suggested earlier. Good thing I re-ran the sims. Although if you are good with an f3 of 64Hz, the Karlsonator 12 can work too. The two will sound different with the K12 being able to achieve higher SPL due to better cone loading and have snappier transients.

However, the Emminator is an ineteresting driver, and something I overlooked before. Glad you suggested it because it happens to have a magical fit for the K15! Bone crushing bass, deep, and lots of it. Here it is in a standard K15:

With a -24dB/oct HPF at 35Hz you can push 25 volts into the Emminator in a K15 to get 120dB at 54Hz!:

Here is the Emminator in a 1.25x scaled Karlsonator - not too shabby either:

Out of all of these, I am leaning towards the Emminator 15 in a K15. You can't pass up a special find like this without building it.