right.............nuts!
I have just layed the panel in the frames...........an got less noise over all.........
better top end....that an max output of the panels have been my quest...........
I have got there....................best tweak ever.....................dropings bias feeder res from 500mg......to 30-10mg...........................................i run 10mg.....the full topend..
I have just layed the panel in the frames...........an got less noise over all.........
better top end....that an max output of the panels have been my quest...........
I have got there....................best tweak ever.....................dropings bias feeder res from 500mg......to 30-10mg...........................................i run 10mg.....the full topend..
Can this be done on 2123 interface? Doesn't,t make things hard on the amplifier?
Seriously, loosening the bolts give much cleaner bass. Best Acoustat tweak yet. Cranking Bob Marley Exodus bass is unreal "Family Man" Barrett lays down some big bass lines. No subwoofer needed. Acoustats can do bass. Wish I had room for another panel per side than we'd be talking bass.
"Can this be done on 2123 interface? Doesn't,t make things hard on the amplifier?"
Yes...........
how I hear What it dose is fill the bias to the mylar fraster......pushing hard plays the bias off the mylar...............this just fills it back up faster..it can keep up better............
ML uses 60mg...soundlab uses none...............an you don't have to pull the 500mg bias feeder res...........ratshak has 10mg.... just parell with the 500mg....if you don't like the sound..... just take it off...................
All these tweaks can be sat back to stock at any time.......
Some say you should hear more Distortion in the sound by lowring the 500mg..........but ESL have vary low Distortion any way....all I hear is better eveything.................like the panel bolts....there has to be more Distortion...........you hear it don't you....hehe...I gess I like it..you to...
Well I new with all the mods I done in time..... to my Acoustat interfaces.....an panels.....I will give this 1 more shot...what is it .....a 1+1/2..hehe....
I still have more panels.......there more to be done.........hay if you don't go you don't know.....................
john65.........I think if you have the room to cant you 2+2s back a little.............just making the 2+2 flat in the frames ....may do the trick....
hell do it all....I have.....well.....wount too....
Yes...........
how I hear What it dose is fill the bias to the mylar fraster......pushing hard plays the bias off the mylar...............this just fills it back up faster..it can keep up better............
ML uses 60mg...soundlab uses none...............an you don't have to pull the 500mg bias feeder res...........ratshak has 10mg.... just parell with the 500mg....if you don't like the sound..... just take it off...................
All these tweaks can be sat back to stock at any time.......
Some say you should hear more Distortion in the sound by lowring the 500mg..........but ESL have vary low Distortion any way....all I hear is better eveything.................like the panel bolts....there has to be more Distortion...........you hear it don't you....hehe...I gess I like it..you to...
Well I new with all the mods I done in time..... to my Acoustat interfaces.....an panels.....I will give this 1 more shot...what is it .....a 1+1/2..hehe....
I still have more panels.......there more to be done.........hay if you don't go you don't know.....................
john65.........I think if you have the room to cant you 2+2s back a little.............just making the 2+2 flat in the frames ....may do the trick....
hell do it all....I have.....well.....wount too....
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Tyu, I tried your suggestion to remove or loosen the screws securing the panels to the frame. On my M3's I removed all but 2 on the opposite corners of the center panel. I left them loosely installed just so the panel won't accidentally fall out. The side panels I removed all the front screws and the two center screws on each in the back. I left the top and bottom screws loosely installed in the back to prevent these from falling out also.
The improvement was immediately obvious! Much more micro detail in the highs, like the panels are relaying more musical information that just wasn't audible before. The bass is prodigious but still detailed like only an electrostat can reproduce it. It's the first time I've ever heard low bass on the level of a subwoofer come from these panels. Amazing!
It's like the panels were always meant to be suspended rather than hard mounted. Maybe some compromises had to be made in the packaging for home use.
I wonder what the result would be if the panels were suspended in a frame that allowed them to move freely, maybe springs or rubber, but still held them in the optimum position for listening.
Hmmm....
The improvement was immediately obvious! Much more micro detail in the highs, like the panels are relaying more musical information that just wasn't audible before. The bass is prodigious but still detailed like only an electrostat can reproduce it. It's the first time I've ever heard low bass on the level of a subwoofer come from these panels. Amazing!
It's like the panels were always meant to be suspended rather than hard mounted. Maybe some compromises had to be made in the packaging for home use.
I wonder what the result would be if the panels were suspended in a frame that allowed them to move freely, maybe springs or rubber, but still held them in the optimum position for listening.
Hmmm....
Any thing or...........any added mass changes the tone of the panels........less is more..........
the mod I posted for wireing the top an bottem of panels ......help get full output an well help kill any noise buzzing ...that might be add....
The way the stock panels are made.............only get about 1/2 the panels output... .....this is why the Acoustat went to the 5 wire panels...................................this put a input an output for ea side.... of the front an back......so the panels mylar would be drive more evenly
an give more output......have fun with Acoustat still room for inproment
the mod I posted for wireing the top an bottem of panels ......help get full output an well help kill any noise buzzing ...that might be add....
The way the stock panels are made.............only get about 1/2 the panels output... .....this is why the Acoustat went to the 5 wire panels...................................this put a input an output for ea side.... of the front an back......so the panels mylar would be drive more evenly
an give more output......have fun with Acoustat still room for inproment
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I wouldnt use metal springs near high voltage but rubber shock cord should be safe.
Does anyone know the physics on how to decrease the resonant frequency of a panel in the Z axis (direction the sound waves are propagated) that is suspended by elastic cord? Im guessing the cord should be thin to be more elastic, long and orientated mostly along the Z axis?
I guess using sobothane would be another option? Do you have any gap between your frame and panels for two sorbothane "feet" under each panel and sorbothane chocks each side of the upper frame to stop the panels falling out. That would allow all he screws to be removed and should attenuate transmitted vibration.
Ebay has sorbothane sheet and 30 duromere grade should absorb more acoustic frequency vibrations.
There is probably a formula to calculate at what frequency(ies) a panel of a given size and weight would resonate. Alas I'm no mathematician and have no idea how to determine this. I would imagine at some point before the frequency where the panel and Mylar vibrate as one and some point after the panel will become less efficient, creating a dip or dips in the response curve. But it may also be the Mylar doesn't have enough mass to significantly affect the panel at all. I simply don't know....
Traditional wisdom is to lock the panels down - tighten those screws, add stiffening to the frame heavy weight etc., in the vein of Mye stands for Magnepans. After all, we can't have those panels just going around vibrating all they want, can we? Controlled vibration=accuracy! The results from implementing Tyu's suggestion indicates otherwise. I was just thinking it through to the extreme, panels floating in midair.
I believe the use of sorbothane in the proper sort of frame has merit. Unfortunately the M3 frame has the 2 side panels install from the rear, and due to the rearward tilt of the frame, would fall out if not held by the screws. But I'm also mindful of a couple of the other ideas Tyu put forth; one, that is the area under the panels being open promotes better sound and two, placing the most active area of the panel at ear level promotes better sound.
I'm headed into my busiest time of year in my job, but I'm intrigued enough, I may fab up some simple frames to nest the panels in while I test some of these ideas.
As far as electronics changes, fuggeddaboudit! I am in no way, shape or form versed in it and wouldn't dare cutting wires to change outputs etc. My interfaces were refurbed by Roy Esposito about a year and a half ago, I couldn't be happier with the result, and I leave them alone. I've let the magic smoke out of electronic things far too many times already!
Traditional wisdom is to lock the panels down - tighten those screws, add stiffening to the frame heavy weight etc., in the vein of Mye stands for Magnepans. After all, we can't have those panels just going around vibrating all they want, can we? Controlled vibration=accuracy! The results from implementing Tyu's suggestion indicates otherwise. I was just thinking it through to the extreme, panels floating in midair.
I believe the use of sorbothane in the proper sort of frame has merit. Unfortunately the M3 frame has the 2 side panels install from the rear, and due to the rearward tilt of the frame, would fall out if not held by the screws. But I'm also mindful of a couple of the other ideas Tyu put forth; one, that is the area under the panels being open promotes better sound and two, placing the most active area of the panel at ear level promotes better sound.
I'm headed into my busiest time of year in my job, but I'm intrigued enough, I may fab up some simple frames to nest the panels in while I test some of these ideas.
As far as electronics changes, fuggeddaboudit! I am in no way, shape or form versed in it and wouldn't dare cutting wires to change outputs etc. My interfaces were refurbed by Roy Esposito about a year and a half ago, I couldn't be happier with the result, and I leave them alone. I've let the magic smoke out of electronic things far too many times already!
All I have ever done is post MY finding on ways to get the magic out of any an all ESLs....this input is on Acoustats.............to me ......thay have a lot of this magic stell to be reviled.............as for................this
"Traditional wisdom is to lock the panels down - tighten those screws, add stiffening to the frame heavy weight etc., in the vein of Mye stands for Magnepans. After all, we can't have those panels just going around vibrating all they want, can we? Controlled vibration=accuracy! The results from implementing Tyu's suggestion indicates otherwise."
Traditional wisdom .....for me has always just been a starting point....
in Higher end Audio......an speakers for sure........
As for the panel mod..........I did not come up with it....but like others after living with it for years.....I thought I would just bring it up agine......it works well at making a good panel .....sound even better
An yes it should be said again.....one DIY must.... is to not let the.... magic smoke out!
an have fun getting better sound....
"Traditional wisdom is to lock the panels down - tighten those screws, add stiffening to the frame heavy weight etc., in the vein of Mye stands for Magnepans. After all, we can't have those panels just going around vibrating all they want, can we? Controlled vibration=accuracy! The results from implementing Tyu's suggestion indicates otherwise."
Traditional wisdom .....for me has always just been a starting point....
in Higher end Audio......an speakers for sure........
As for the panel mod..........I did not come up with it....but like others after living with it for years.....I thought I would just bring it up agine......it works well at making a good panel .....sound even better
An yes it should be said again.....one DIY must.... is to not let the.... magic smoke out!
an have fun getting better sound....
My Acoustats seem to have a felt lining between the panel and the frames in an attempt to decouple them. This could obviously be upgraded with a more modern material. I am also considering applying dampening material to the frames.
Loosening the screws helps to decouple the panels from the frames and helps prevent the frames from vibrating and singing along with the panels. It seems like there are two ways to go; do everything possible to decouple the panels from the frames including running the panels without any frames (which is probably the ultimate solution) or make the frames as stiff and non resonant as possible (probably with steel as Mr. Acoustat's friend Jocelyn does in his modifications and Sound Lab does in their best speakers).
I remember reading about somebody using caulking or epoxy in the louver squares along the frame walls to dampen resonances in the panels?
Given the difference just loosening the bolts has on the sound, this is definitely an important area to work on if you want to get the most out of your Acoustats.
Long live Acoustats!
Loosening the screws helps to decouple the panels from the frames and helps prevent the frames from vibrating and singing along with the panels. It seems like there are two ways to go; do everything possible to decouple the panels from the frames including running the panels without any frames (which is probably the ultimate solution) or make the frames as stiff and non resonant as possible (probably with steel as Mr. Acoustat's friend Jocelyn does in his modifications and Sound Lab does in their best speakers).
I remember reading about somebody using caulking or epoxy in the louver squares along the frame walls to dampen resonances in the panels?
Given the difference just loosening the bolts has on the sound, this is definitely an important area to work on if you want to get the most out of your Acoustats.
Long live Acoustats!
As for the felt type pads on the back.......years back I pulled them off...thay were replace with tape.............paper tape is what we end up using....it adds the least of it own sound....an dose the same job as the felt.......but it dose not eat high frc...as the felt dose..................An I was not the one that came up with this tweek.....
We found there it a lot of high frc coming off the panels back...
Too get the best bass off of a fulrang panels..........you have to move a lot of air...
well that meanes the mylar has to move a lot.......... the best topend will come from a lessmoveing panel..........will this means to my ear .....we need to hear all the topend we have........so any thing that eats high frec is out.....an moved away from these panels.............have fun get better sound with tweeks an mods .....you can allways put the pads back if you feel there needed..............any added mass to these panels well change the sound......I have found not for the better.....
We found there it a lot of high frc coming off the panels back...
Too get the best bass off of a fulrang panels..........you have to move a lot of air...
well that meanes the mylar has to move a lot.......... the best topend will come from a lessmoveing panel..........will this means to my ear .....we need to hear all the topend we have........so any thing that eats high frec is out.....an moved away from these panels.............have fun get better sound with tweeks an mods .....you can allways put the pads back if you feel there needed..............any added mass to these panels well change the sound......I have found not for the better.....
I've tried many amps with the M3's including a Jolida JD502BRC with less than satisfactory results. Here's an interesting read on using tube amps to power low impedance speakers like Acoustats..
Sanders Sound Systems - Tubes vs. Transistors White Paper
The takeaway for me was to really make the Acoustats sing you need high current, high quality solid state amplification.
Bearing in mind the power requirements of the Acoustats, and having great respect for John Curl and his work, I bought a Parasound Halo A21 and have been supremely satisfied with the resultant sound. Here's an interesting old interview with him where he discusses his design philosophy...
http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
I think you'll find the price to be comparable to the Jolida, others will have their own opinions, I'm sure....I believe TYU is a tube guy and may have further insight, I'm still pretty much a noob.
Sanders Sound Systems - Tubes vs. Transistors White Paper
The takeaway for me was to really make the Acoustats sing you need high current, high quality solid state amplification.
Bearing in mind the power requirements of the Acoustats, and having great respect for John Curl and his work, I bought a Parasound Halo A21 and have been supremely satisfied with the resultant sound. Here's an interesting old interview with him where he discusses his design philosophy...
http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
I think you'll find the price to be comparable to the Jolida, others will have their own opinions, I'm sure....I believe TYU is a tube guy and may have further insight, I'm still pretty much a noob.
Thanks but I already have a couple of solid state amps ( hafler xl 280 and Nad 208)
I'm looking for different sound and will configure so I can use solid state amp for short listening on week nights and tube on the weekends.
Fwiw, the nad sounds like it should be blessed by Sanders as it has dual rail design for high voltage, puts out 900w peak into 1ohm and has a soft clip option .
I'm looking for different sound and will configure so I can use solid state amp for short listening on week nights and tube on the weekends.
Fwiw, the nad sounds like it should be blessed by Sanders as it has dual rail design for high voltage, puts out 900w peak into 1ohm and has a soft clip option .
I use a Rogue Audio Stereo 90 (modified) on my Spectra22 speakers in a small room. Produces 90 watts per channel in UL mode. Seems to have all the volume and drive I need, with good bass. Have not tried a big sand amp on them, but do have a Quad 606 (145 watts) lying around that I could try.
I believe the 2+2s with 4 panels per side are more efficient than the Spectra22. I think a 100 watt tube amp would have no trouble driving them in a moderate sized room. Wether that would be better than using a big solid state amp I can't say, I have always preferred tube amps myself.
I believe the 2+2s with 4 panels per side are more efficient than the Spectra22. I think a 100 watt tube amp would have no trouble driving them in a moderate sized room. Wether that would be better than using a big solid state amp I can't say, I have always preferred tube amps myself.
Most of the work I done here on the site....................with getting the bias up too....6k from 4k....an getting the bias off the mixer board......that steay eddsy are all over an pull the bias down...the louder you play the panels...........
droping the bias feeder res....from 500meg.....down to 10-20 meg....that works better an give better sound an more output..........in the digital age we live in to day.....
an pulling the high frc eating felt pades an using tape on the back of the panels......that work the same but dose not kill any top end..............
an then the panel mod......that makes the hole panel give full output.......
was base on geting the Acoustats to get too the point were one could use a 50-100 watt tube amp................get all the output anyone needs
But with the SS sand amps 300-400 watt..............like pro amp with fans in them....you no the one NO one wont.................can give great sound an work well with the Acoustat are any ESL....were the amp is driving a tranfourmer............need a fan......or a tube amp tranfourmer that match up well ...............
when the THD is as low as any ESL....I like to play them loud!
all this is just one mans findings...........in 30 years of having Acoustats
droping the bias feeder res....from 500meg.....down to 10-20 meg....that works better an give better sound an more output..........in the digital age we live in to day.....
an pulling the high frc eating felt pades an using tape on the back of the panels......that work the same but dose not kill any top end..............
an then the panel mod......that makes the hole panel give full output.......
was base on geting the Acoustats to get too the point were one could use a 50-100 watt tube amp................get all the output anyone needs
But with the SS sand amps 300-400 watt..............like pro amp with fans in them....you no the one NO one wont.................can give great sound an work well with the Acoustat are any ESL....were the amp is driving a tranfourmer............need a fan......or a tube amp tranfourmer that match up well ...............
when the THD is as low as any ESL....I like to play them loud!
all this is just one mans findings...........in 30 years of having Acoustats
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I feel that my 1+1 Acoustats sound a little dull and muted when compared to my favorite dynamic cone speakers. Is this normal. The imaging can't be beat, but the sound is a little lifeless unless the volume is increased to what I would call 'loud'.
As far as I know the 1+1s are bone stock and have never been touched.
Any help, advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
As far as I know the 1+1s are bone stock and have never been touched.
Any help, advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
The bias is what makes any ESL work.......................how cool they look .....Vary......if you have the room hight..............no matter how well the panels are made....an how long they have lasted........................................No bias No sound..........
1+1s are....over 20 years old........bias made to run all the time...24/7... less unplugged........
if you can do the work great......then get some one that can.....rebild the stock bias at lest.....less $50 in parts
an then do the C-mod crossover to the high frc tran in 121interfaces.....if you don't have it all ready...........good places to start.....other can say diff......have fun
1+1s are....over 20 years old........bias made to run all the time...24/7... less unplugged........
if you can do the work great......then get some one that can.....rebild the stock bias at lest.....less $50 in parts
an then do the C-mod crossover to the high frc tran in 121interfaces.....if you don't have it all ready...........good places to start.....other can say diff......have fun