Thanks for breaking the ice, Brad - but there's been a certain amount of price creep on Bottlehead kits as well during the past 10yrs - I remember paying $149 for a Foreplay pre-amp and a buddy got a pair of Paramour Is on clear-out for under $500.
I also note that several of Steve's more recent kit offerings have been PCB based, and use SS diodes - practices he long derided for sonic penalties. I'd be particularly concerned about long term reliability with close mounting of the cathode resistor or PS voltage drop resistor - not to mention the reduced flexibility of parts rolling due to tight component spacing.
Even though the original Hammond style aluminum chassis was a tight squeeze, there was still more room to maneuver upgrade parts in 3D.
yeah, that whole point-to-point wiring thing is one change. Another is less sensitive speakers. Steve used to poo-poo low efficiency/sensativity speakers because they can't possibly perform the kind of magic with that magical (first watt) that the sensitive speakers can. But then he came out with more powerful amps and so that marketing angle kinda faded away. Again, to some extent it's understandable why he did this. But it does tend to undermine his credibility, right? It makes it tough to believe the things he's claiming about his current designs. But I'll say again, it's best to just take everything he, or any other dealer, says with a grain of salt, if not completely ignore, and just listen and let your ears be the judge. In the end, in spite of Steve's claims, the amps, preamps, and speakers of his I have owned sounded extremely good for the money spent at that time IMO.
I see TWO interesting areas, that are slightly different from what usually seen
throath opening is a round hole
the two last foldings just before the mouth have paralel baffles
the first part of the horn have angled baffles
it appears to be like a hybrid of the two commonly used folding principles
but maybe it doesn't matter at all
or else the picture is incorrect
throath opening is a round hole
the two last foldings just before the mouth have paralel baffles
the first part of the horn have angled baffles
it appears to be like a hybrid of the two commonly used folding principles
but maybe it doesn't matter at all
or else the picture is incorrect
Attachments
First off, let me state I do not profess to know anything about horn theory, nor will I get into any kind of argument over such.
Scott, this is not an insult in any way, nor is it meant to be. But if you were to sell speakers, your horn with nothing but specs and the actual theory behind your speaker, you would more than likely loose the reader of your web page before they got to the second paragraph. To you it looks like loose fitting terms to theory, it also has to be an interesting read. Remember Decware is not trying to sell to you, he is trying to sell to Joe public.
Also, Scott, a comment you made about if the speaker was so new then how did someone already try to copy it, well after building the first set for Steve, and hearing something I had never heard from a BLH I thought I'd change the outer shape and make something for myself, or Turning Point, to go along with our Trapezium speaker.
To say the least it was by far the worst BLH I had ever heard. It only had very low bass and everything from say 120 Hz down to 50 Hz was completely missing. What makes this different (in my opinion) from the BVR is the offset port, which Steve comments about why and how it works in the paper you are loosely calling an audio paper.
In the horn I tried to reshape into my speaker, if you look at the throat in the cabinet standing up its much shorter before the first bend than it is in Steves version. While I got the flare exact, but because my first section before the bend was shorter, I centered the port way to close the the actual throat which is what made them behave the way they did. This off set location is obviously critical.
If anyone here is interested, at my expense, I build a back loaded horn of your choosing, the driver of your choosing and take it to this years Decfest and let the attendees judge which is better, or goes lower or whatever they want to judge it on. I will build it to spec, exactly how it was intended to be built and take photos of it along the way so everyone here can make sure I didn't make any mistakes.
I hope this dosen't offend anyone, not my intention!!!
Bob Z
Scott, this is not an insult in any way, nor is it meant to be. But if you were to sell speakers, your horn with nothing but specs and the actual theory behind your speaker, you would more than likely loose the reader of your web page before they got to the second paragraph. To you it looks like loose fitting terms to theory, it also has to be an interesting read. Remember Decware is not trying to sell to you, he is trying to sell to Joe public.
Also, Scott, a comment you made about if the speaker was so new then how did someone already try to copy it, well after building the first set for Steve, and hearing something I had never heard from a BLH I thought I'd change the outer shape and make something for myself, or Turning Point, to go along with our Trapezium speaker.
To say the least it was by far the worst BLH I had ever heard. It only had very low bass and everything from say 120 Hz down to 50 Hz was completely missing. What makes this different (in my opinion) from the BVR is the offset port, which Steve comments about why and how it works in the paper you are loosely calling an audio paper.
In the horn I tried to reshape into my speaker, if you look at the throat in the cabinet standing up its much shorter before the first bend than it is in Steves version. While I got the flare exact, but because my first section before the bend was shorter, I centered the port way to close the the actual throat which is what made them behave the way they did. This off set location is obviously critical.
If anyone here is interested, at my expense, I build a back loaded horn of your choosing, the driver of your choosing and take it to this years Decfest and let the attendees judge which is better, or goes lower or whatever they want to judge it on. I will build it to spec, exactly how it was intended to be built and take photos of it along the way so everyone here can make sure I didn't make any mistakes.
I hope this dosen't offend anyone, not my intention!!!
Bob Z
I like Ed and his little back horn speaker is a proven design. It provides pleasure and it was even reviewed in Stereophile. He builds them with his dad. It's a family business. He could build other things if he wanted but sticks with this time tested design. Personally, I don't like seeing anyone get attacked or criticized when it comes to this HOBBY!
Zilla
Zilla
Hi BobZ, actually the person who wondered "how can something brand new be knocked off?" was me.
So you're saying you were winging it, as in "change the geometry, change the driver, and hope for the best"? That's like trying to hit a bullet with a bullet. There are way too many variables. Thank God people don't build bridges that way
I definitely appreciate your excellent workmanship though! Not sure if you can answer this, but does the amp seem to get adequate ventilation?
Add me to the list.
Funny thing about this market. Most everyone on the forum is into DIY. You know the philosophy -- take a $20 driver and make a $1000 speaker. DIY'ers, particularly the younger ones, are very price sensitive. Omega doesn't sell speakers into this market. I don't sell speakers into this market. I sell a lot of plans and some flats, but no speakers.
Selling speakers commercially requires at least some profit. I mentioned in another thread that I have a new speaker using that Alpair 7. I have something like $450 tied up in materials, shipping, PayPal fees. (You really think that there is something called "free shipping"?) I'm marketing them at $700. I can get away with this low price because I have essentially no overhead. The advantage of working out of my home.
Well, I doubt that I will ever sell a $700 pair of speakers, 4"ers at that, to anyone on this forum. My market is to the audiophiles.
Funny thing about audiophiles. To many, my prices are too low to be taken seriously. How can a speaker selling at less than $xxxx be worth a darn. So I have been ratcheting up my prices to a point where I will be taken seriously. Other boutique builders are doing the same thing. Our prices have to be HIGHER than Best Buy or there will be no interest.
Bob
rjbond, I guess I owe my apologies to Scottmoose....
No I didn't wing it at all.....The driver I was using was tried in Steve's horn before shipping it to him. I had tried 3 different Fostex drivers which were all laughable at best. Then I tried the Vifa NE123W driver and was amazed. The horn is exactly as the Decware version except for the location of the port. Just the outside of the box was changed. If I put the port in the same distance as Steves drawing, it would have been right in the middle of the first turn. I'm pretty good but that one eluded me as to how to pull that off. So at that point and yes, I guess you are correct, I winged the location of the port.
I didn't see it with the tube amp installed so I couldn't give any info on that. The top of the tube sets exactly flush with the outside of the cabinet face, so my only concern would be the Veneer on the front bubbling.
BobZ
No I didn't wing it at all.....The driver I was using was tried in Steve's horn before shipping it to him. I had tried 3 different Fostex drivers which were all laughable at best. Then I tried the Vifa NE123W driver and was amazed. The horn is exactly as the Decware version except for the location of the port. Just the outside of the box was changed. If I put the port in the same distance as Steves drawing, it would have been right in the middle of the first turn. I'm pretty good but that one eluded me as to how to pull that off. So at that point and yes, I guess you are correct, I winged the location of the port.
I didn't see it with the tube amp installed so I couldn't give any info on that. The top of the tube sets exactly flush with the outside of the cabinet face, so my only concern would be the Veneer on the front bubbling.
BobZ
Bob B., I thought you just had to be taken seriously by the popular reviewers? I thought generally audiophiles buy what gets good reviews - by people or publications they trust. And although most of the reviewed stuff is expensive there is plenty of low cost stuff getting reviewed all the time... amps, dacs, and speakers to a lesser degree.
Right.
Bob[z],
No offense taken but you appear to have missed what gets my back up. Price I do not have a problem with. Marketing I do not have a problem with. Both are commercial requirements and realities. However, marketing that mixes truth with half-truths and outright misinformation, which to cap it all also starts critically refering to commercial rivals on at best questionable premises is a disservice to the entire audio industry. You may say 'other people do it.' Well, some do. The peddlers of high-priced wire do. And I say exactly the same thing about them as well.
Is it a BVR? Yes. The specifics of the behaviour will of course vary depending on the location the driver chamber is tapped into the horn, but the underlying mechanism / physics don't change. Precident in plenty for that too.
Bob[z],
No offense taken but you appear to have missed what gets my back up. Price I do not have a problem with. Marketing I do not have a problem with. Both are commercial requirements and realities. However, marketing that mixes truth with half-truths and outright misinformation, which to cap it all also starts critically refering to commercial rivals on at best questionable premises is a disservice to the entire audio industry. You may say 'other people do it.' Well, some do. The peddlers of high-priced wire do. And I say exactly the same thing about them as well.
Is it a BVR? Yes. The specifics of the behaviour will of course vary depending on the location the driver chamber is tapped into the horn, but the underlying mechanism / physics don't change. Precident in plenty for that too.
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Hi BobZ, thanks for responding. I'm no expert either (more of an enthusiastic newbie). Trying various drivers is definitely winging it, though. Nothing wrong with that but it tends to be the tough way to go.
Getting the horn's upper response to blend seamlessly with the driver's low-end rolloff is obviously really tricky. The cabinet is basically a "wooden crossover" and of course we would not expect good results winging it on a crossover.
So BobZ, the million-dollar question: how do they sound?
Ring was trying to sell a FH1 with a tapped horn sub for north of 10 kiloEuro. Colin is selling his FH3/FE126En for £450 which is a giveaway.
dave
Is there an audiophile site where stuff at these prices is sold?
We have an allotment and grow our own veggies, we will soon be having our little new potato ceremony, out of the ground into the boiling water, served with butter and a crunchy wholemeal bread roll and a glass of dry white wine.
My gourmet relation paid £20 per serving for just the potatoes at a restaurent in London. Well!! If people will do that then a couple of grand for a pair of high end speakers is nowt.
Jim
We have an allotment and grow our own veggies, we will soon be having our little new potato ceremony, out of the ground into the boiling water, served with butter and a crunchy wholemeal bread roll and a glass of dry white wine.
My gourmet relation paid £20 per serving for just the potatoes at a restaurent in London. Well!! If people will do that then a couple of grand for a pair of high end speakers is nowt.
Jim
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