A 'how to' for High Gloss Finishing

[sploo]

Hi,
I'm not John, but some of us in the Northwest have had good luck with Glidden Urethane Floor enamel.

Thanks Terry. Is that a water or solvent based urethane?

 

[TerryO]

Thanks Terry. Is that a water or solvent based urethane?

The Gidden is one part solvent based. BTW: because it isn't sprayed, the concern about breathing this stuff is just about eliminated, although I wouldn't lock my self in a small closet while applying it.

A normal room with a couple of open windows will do. When you're done painting, just close the door behind you and give it a few hours. Even better is outdoors, but watch out for breeze-bourn dust, direct hot sunlight and insects. Morning hours are the best, once the dew has subsided.

Try it out the whole sequence on some MDF scraps, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the ease and the quality of the results.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[MJL21193]

Hi John,

I've got a brain like a sieve... I know we've discussed this before, but can't remember the answer... I take it you're still using a solvent based (2K?) urethane on the bare MDF first? I.e. you use that as the primer and the waterbased as the colour coat? And that's followed by a 2K clear?

Hi again sploo,
The solvent based clear urethane (doesn't matter what gloss) is what I've found to be the most effective way to prime the raw MDF. This is 1k, just ordinary clear urethane. Thoroughly sand the MDF with 400 grit paper first, to make it as smooth as possible, then spray on 2 or 3 thin coats.
Let this dry 24 hours or more then lightly sand it smooth (by hand) with fine sandpaper. No more priming is needed - edges are sealed, ready for paint.

I did this on my centre speaker baffle and it worked out perfectly. Here's how it looked after the urethane was sprayed on.

 

[MJL21193]

Try it out the whole sequence on some MDF scraps, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the ease and the quality of the results.

Best Regards,
TerryO

Hi Terry,
I have done it like that in the past, using a foam roller and alkyd paint. The results are good, but the amount of work to sand it smooth and to get enough coats on in the first place makes it a chore. It has to dry a long time before you can do much with it. Also, you could see the "layers" of the paint after sanding as each coat was allowed to dry before the next.
It is a good option for someone who has no equipment, no dedicated work space and much patience and time on their hands.
I tried it also with the waterbased urethane, but it didn't work well at all. Because it dries so fast, I wound up sanding most of it off to get it smooth and burned completely through in quite a few places (after more than 10 coats). I considered it a wasted effort.

 

[MJL21193]

you use that as the primer and the waterbased as the colour coat? And that's followed by a 2K clear?

The amp case in post #86 and my curved three-way baffles were just the waterbased urethane paint, smoothed and polished. No clear coat.

 

[TerryO]

Hi Terry,
I have done it like that in the past, using a foam roller and alkyd paint. The results are good, but the amount of work to sand it smooth and to get enough coats on in the first place makes it a chore. It has to dry a long time before you can do much with it. Also, you could see the "layers" of the paint after sanding as each coat was allowed to dry before the next.
It is a good option for someone who has no equipment, no dedicated work space and much patience and time on their hands.
I tried it also with the waterbased urethane, but it didn't work well at all. Because it dries so fast, I wound up sanding most of it off to get it smooth and burned completely through in quite a few places (after more than 10 coats). I considered it a wasted effort.

ML,

Alkyd enamel, at least the old time alkyd house "and" car enamels, never actually completely cures (or at least for a number of years) and never responds well to sanding. The Urethane is a different animal and is IMHO, a superior finish to the older formulas. It does need to cure for awhile, but can be sanded. Many of the "problems" that the older formulas had, have been minimized or eliminated in the newer paints. As for water-based Urethane, I've never had much luck with it either, it's ratio of solids to carrier(water) is such that not very much material is deposited per coat. I wouldn't recommend it as it stands now, perhaps it will be improved to the point that it will surpass oil-based Urethane, but the point hasn't been reached yet.

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[MJL21193]

ML,

Alkyd enamel, at least the old time alkyd house "and" car enamels, never actually completely cures (or at least for a number of years) and never responds well to sanding. The Urethane is a different animal and is IMHO, a superior finish to the older formulas.

As for water-based Urethane, I've never had much luck with it either, it's ratio of solids to carrier(water) is such that not very much material is deposited per coat. I wouldn't recommend it as it stands now, perhaps it will be improved to the point that it will surpass oil-based Urethane, but the point hasn't been reached yet.

Hi Terry,
I first tried high gloss with alkyd (Tremclad rust paint) several years back on some furniture I did. This I rolled on and sanded smooth and polished. It looked ok after tons of effort.

I then started to spray this, with better results. This paint cures fine, and sands easily after a few days.

I then switched to solvent based urethane paint and sprayed that. This gave great results, but once again the drying time was lengthy. I would need to let it cure for nearly a month for best results.
The obvious other problems with solvent based paint: toxic fumes and highly flammable. Cleanup with dangerous solvents.

I have now been using a waterbased urethane 1k paint from Sherwin Williams, the paint I linked to on the previous page. To say this paint is not on the same level as the 1K oil-based urethane is NOT accurate. It exceeds the oil based on every level of performance. It dries ULTRA fast, low odor, not flammable, extremely tough and durable. One look at the quality of the finish will show that it is not inferior at all.

Invest in a can of this and see the difference for yourself. Once you have used it, it's doubtful you will go back to anything with solvent in it.

 

[tech9_79]

John, im sold.

so your using a generic clear urethane as a primer/sealer, then the armorseal. Did you use several thin coats or was it done with heavier passes?

If you have anymore pics of your work I would love to see them!

you know im really kind of glad my finish got f-up(sort of), thanks john.


"your entire empire of destruction comes... crashing down. All because of one little... cherry." love that movie.

 

[TerryO]

Hi Terry,
I first tried high gloss with alkyd (Tremclad rust paint) several years back on some furniture I did. This I rolled on and sanded smooth and polished. It looked ok after tons of effort.

I then started to spray this, with better results. This paint cures fine, and sands easily after a few days.

I then switched to solvent based urethane paint and sprayed that. This gave great results, but once again the drying time was lengthy. I would need to let it cure for nearly a month for best results.
The obvious other problems with solvent based paint: toxic fumes and highly flammable. Cleanup with dangerous solvents.

I have now been using a waterbased urethane 1k paint from Sherwin Williams, the paint I linked to on the previous page. To say this paint is not on the same level as the 1K oil-based urethane is NOT accurate. It exceeds the oil based on every level of performance. It dries ULTRA fast, low odor, not flammable, extremely tough and durable. One look at the quality of the finish will show that it is not inferior at all.

Invest in a can of this and see the difference for yourself. Once you have used it, it's doubtful you will go back to anything with solvent in it.

MJL,
Alkyd enamel is, IMHO, little better than pigmented tar. When I was painting cars and motorcycles, back in the day, it was ok for a cheap job. It was applied in 3 fairly heavy coats, one after the other (wet on wet) which required some real care in order to avoid runs, but the prep work was very minimal compared to lacquer. It developed, upon drying, a surface with a self leveling gloss finish. Any subsequent polishing actually slightly decreased the shine.

As for the water-based urethane, you might be on to something there, as I had a conversation with the Sherwin-Williams people a year or so ago and they were pretty excited about their line of water-based Urethane paint. They felt that their special line of auto paint was the real industry leader when it came to custom, after market graphics, ie., showcar paint jobs. They were going to get some in locally so I could try it, but I never hear from them again. Appearently they changed their mind.
From that I can only suppose that any innovations or improvements in ther formulas would filter down to their other lines as applicable.
Since you have used the Sherwin-Williams and had good success with it, I will probably try it out on the basis of your recommendation.

Now I have to select a project worthy of a decent paint job

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[sploo]

The solvent based clear urethane (doesn't matter what gloss) is what I've found to be the most effective way to prime the raw MDF. This is 1k, just ordinary clear urethane.

Thanks John. I'm sure you've posted this before, but what was the product for this one, another Sherwin-Williams?

My experience with the urethanes has been with a white paint called Isolack (can't remember the manufacturer off the top of my head).

The 1k covered raw MDF well, and hasn't shown signs of the lines after drying. However, I found it never really goes fully hard (a fingernail pressed hard will cause marks).

The 2k seemed to be less viscous and didn't coat so well (and had a tendency to run). However, it dries rock hard overnight, and also looks promising for not showing lines.

I was quite surprised you've found success with a 1k product, but hey, it's safer so that sounds good to me.

I've seen pics of your mains before, but not the center. It's looking great - even with just a coat of the clear!

The amp case in post #86 and my curved three-way baffles were just the waterbased urethane paint, smoothed and polished. No clear coat.

Looking good. Are you planning on leaving them without a 2K coat?

Alkyd enamel is, IMHO, little better than pigmented tar.

*LOL* I don't have any experience with Alkyd paints, but I've certainly used one or two primers and coatings over the years for which I've had similar disdain.

 

[MJL21193]

John, im sold.

so your using a generic clear urethane as a primer/sealer, then the armorseal. Did you use several thin coats or was it done with heavier passes?

Yes, the MDF should as sealed as possible from moisture absorption, and solvent based urethane does this very well.
I use Flecto Varathane Professional in the black can which dries fast. 2 or three thin spray coats of this to prime.
If you are going for the piano black finish, you need to have the paint layer thick enough to sand without burning through. I have done 10 or more coats with about 5 minutes between coats.

Alkyd enamel is, IMHO, little better than pigmented tar.

As for the water-based urethane, you might be on to something there, as I had a conversation with the Sherwin-Williams people a year or so ago and they were pretty excited about their line of water-based Urethane paint.

The alkyd certainly doesn't get as hard or as durable as the urethane, that's for sure. If you can get the gloss up, it will not retain it - dulling after a short while.

Sherwin Williams has several very interesting looking waterbased coatings. I took the chance on the armorseal last year, not knowing for certain how well it would work. I'm glad I did.
They have introduced a new line of automotive waterborne paint: AWX waterborne basecoat/clearcoat.
This looks like the way of the future.

 

[MJL21193]

Thanks John. I'm sure you've posted this before, but what was the product for this one, another Sherwin-Williams?

My experience with the urethanes has been with a white paint called Isolack (can't remember the manufacturer off the top of my head).

The 1k covered raw MDF well, and hasn't shown signs of the lines after drying. However, I found it never really goes fully hard (a fingernail pressed hard will cause marks).


Looking good. Are you planning on leaving them without a 2K coat?

The SB urethane can be any good quality for finishing furniture. Like I said above, I use Flecto but I'm sure the other brands will be fine.

It's odd that the paint you used didn't harden enough to resist the "fingernail test". I've never had that problem.

I am in the process of painting my mains yet again. I think I might have been a bit hasty last year, and compromised the finish by doing everything a bit too quickly.
I'm waiting on the availability of the AWX paint linked above. I'll be using that system from now on, and it includes a low VOC clear.

 

[sploo]

The SB urethane can be any good quality for finishing furniture. Like I said above, I use Flecto but I'm sure the other brands will be fine.

Hi John,

Thanks for the info. I've been doing some searches for the "Flecto Varathane Professional", with mixed results. Is this the right stuff? (http://www.harvesterfloors.com/Merc...OD&Store_Code=harvester&Product_Code=VAR11100)

I've seen (and got) clear satin clear polyurethane varnish, but is this product not a varnish?

BTW Is the Varathane another Sherwin-Williams, or is it made by someone else?

It's odd that the paint you used didn't harden enough to resist the "fingernail test". I've never had that problem.

Yea, you do have to be pretty brutal - pressing a fingernail into it as hard as possible. However, it does leave a mark, whereas the 2K stuff was solid after just 12 hours.

The best results I've had with sealing MDF is, as you originally stated, to just use the urethane on the bare MDF. Any of the test blocks that I attempted to seal with something else first are showing faint lines. This is why I'm so interested in the 1K urethane clear, as that plus a waterbased paint is going to be so much safer than trying to coat things with the 2K urethane paint.

I am in the process of painting my mains yet again. I think I might have been a bit hasty last year, and compromised the finish by doing everything a bit too quickly.
I'm waiting on the availability of the AWX paint linked above. I'll be using that system from now on, and it includes a low VOC clear.

That is always the problem with this kind of work; the longer you leave each state (usually) the better. It's a pain when you want something finished!

 

[MJL21193]

Thanks for the info. I've been doing some searches for the "Flecto Varathane Professional", with mixed results. Is this the right stuff? (http://www.harvesterfloors.com/Merc...OD&Store_Code=harvester&Product_Code=VAR11100)

I've seen (and got) clear satin clear polyurethane varnish, but is this product not a varnish?

BTW Is the Varathane another Sherwin-Williams, or is it made by someone else?

See pic below for the one I use. This exact one may not be available in the UK, but any good oil based polyurethane will work. If the paint system that you want to use is 2K, you should use the manufacturers recommended primer. I can swear by the urethane under the waterbased Armorseal, but anything that has strong solvents might attack the poly.
The one you linked too looks like our waterbased one, although it says oil based.

Varathane is by Flecto, which is a sub of Rusoleum, which is in turn owned by RPM international. A tangled web.

Sherwin Williams does oil based poly, but I haven't tried it. The Varathane is cheap ($35.00/gal) and dries fast, so I have no reason to try anything else.

 

[Nordic]

My vote goes to 2 part polyurethane paint finishes like Glatex 8, quick curing (i.e. two part), very durable (is used on yachts), super easy to get gloss with foam roler, does not yellow, available in clear as well as a range of colours.

I seems to nearly turn the wood it comes into contact with into plastic... it gives the mirror arearance of old shelaqed furniture, but with a deep gloss, almost looks wet or like glass.

Use disposable rolers as there is no stopping te curing process.

2K is basicaly the same thing, but for cars...

 

[cj.9]

This is a great thread and timely too!
I'm getting ready to paint my ZD5 Floorstanders.

I was planning to use the Verathane for the primer and the Armorseal 1k but Sherwin Williams doesn't stock the Armorseal 1K, only the Treadplex. Have to order 4 gallons @ $60/gal if special ordered.

Any suggestions for a good paint that will be compatable with the Verathane?

Thanks,

 

[cj.9]

Nevermind....can't even find the Varathane Professional here!

 

[sploo]

Hi cj.9, I see you're having the same supply problems as me!

Over the last week I've contacted Rust-Oleum and Sherwin-Williams about the Varathane and Armorseal respectively, and also a large number of UK based suppliers (to see if they stock anything similiar).

The Varathane is a no-go; with no EU certification labels, Rust-Oleum couldn't even sell me a one off tin.

Sherwin-Williams don't sell the Armorseal in the UK, but have indicated they could ship batches. I'll follow up on this, but I suspect the cost would be prohibitive for small quantities.

Most of the UK suppliers couldn't recommend anything, though I am in contact with a paint specialist who's taken an interest in the application, and I'll see where that goes.

I've also done a little experimentation, sealing some MDF with both a clear solvent based polyurethane varnish, and a white waterbased acrylic primer (yeah, water + MDF = bad, I know).

After giving them a few days to dry, I sanded them smooth, and applied some 2K urethane paint. The 2K causes the poly varnish to wrinkle, but, surprisingly, the acrylic seems happy.

For a project I'm doing at the moment, I might try the acrylic + 2K paint, as it wouldn't be a disaster if it wasn't great. I could/should just apply the urethane to the bare MDF as I know that works, but you use loads of paint (as it soaks in) and I'm running low. I don't want to order more, as I'd like to find a 1K sealer + waterbased paint alternative like the Varathane + Armorseal.

BTW Nordic - someone (you?) had mentioned Glatex 8 in the past, but I've never been able to find it. Could you give me some web links for more info?

 

[454Casull]

So the recommendation is oil-based polyurethane for priming and the Armorseal for a final coat?

 

[MJL21193]

Hi 454,
That's my take on it (for now). The results speak for themselves. Best results when you apply a lot of coats in a short time, without letting it run or sag. If you let it dry for too long, you will get "layers" in the paint build. This doesn't happen with lacquer based paints, as each new layer partially dissolves the layer it's going onto. Urethane, whether it's solvent based or water based, will not be dissolved by it's own solvent though, once it's dry.

Depth of the finish and reflection when well polished is very good
For extra durability and depth, you can sand with 800-1000 grit and top coat with a clear. Seems it's possible to put any formulation clearcoat over the Armorseal. It is incredibly resistant to chemical attack.