Does anyone have any experience with either of these products or something similar? water based seems so much easier 
Oxford USL http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/products/Oxford_USL_Clear_Gloss_1_Gal-86-24.html
deft
http://www.deftfinishes.com/trade/OurProducts/details.cfm?ProductID=14
Oxford USL http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/products/Oxford_USL_Clear_Gloss_1_Gal-86-24.html
deft
http://www.deftfinishes.com/trade/OurProducts/details.cfm?ProductID=14
tech9_79 said:
The products you are using are not compatible. The strong solvent (lacquer thinner) in the lacquer is attacking the oil based paint. This MIGHT be avoided if you let the paint dry for a longer period.
If you want to use clear lacquer as the top coat, you should use pigmented lacquer for the base coat. To prime the raw MDF, I use clear solvent based polyurethane and let this dry for at least 24 hours.
If you want to continue using the oil (alkyd) based paint, use clear polyurethane as the top coat. You will need to sand the base coat with fine sand paper after it has thoroughly dried, if you don't spray continuously from base coat to clear.
Hi Ant.
Have you tried Mirca Abralon abrasives?
Cuts down time and cost in a half. It may be more expensive to start but the abrasive discs don't load up quiet as fast as wet-dry paper and last longer. I've used Mirca dry and wet with good results also.
http://www.mirka.com/abralon_automotive?mid=35055225-C075-4EB9-91F8-1AD3BA1450BB&
This is even better! Cheap too.
http://www.mirka.com/abranet
Have you tried Mirca Abralon abrasives?
Cuts down time and cost in a half. It may be more expensive to start but the abrasive discs don't load up quiet as fast as wet-dry paper and last longer. I've used Mirca dry and wet with good results also.
http://www.mirka.com/abralon_automotive?mid=35055225-C075-4EB9-91F8-1AD3BA1450BB&
This is even better! Cheap too.
http://www.mirka.com/abranet
Has anyone found a waterborn gloss black paint that they like?
The only one I could find was Crystalac http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CLU-5490/Gallon-Gloss-Black-Topcoat-CrystaLac
It's "almost" great. The problem I had with it was that it seemed to aerate...as the paint flowed out on the surface, tiny bubbles would begin to form. Many of them would disippate, but quite a few would not. These sanded away easily in the rub out process, but if they had not occured in the first place, the "piano black" would have been almost perfect right off the gun.
I'd still like to find something better, since my next project will be satin black. I don't want to have to sand out bubbles on that, because I'll never get the satin finish to come back to the exact same sheen. Plus these will be quite large boxes.
The only one I could find was Crystalac http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CLU-5490/Gallon-Gloss-Black-Topcoat-CrystaLac
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It's "almost" great. The problem I had with it was that it seemed to aerate...as the paint flowed out on the surface, tiny bubbles would begin to form. Many of them would disippate, but quite a few would not. These sanded away easily in the rub out process, but if they had not occured in the first place, the "piano black" would have been almost perfect right off the gun.
I'd still like to find something better, since my next project will be satin black. I don't want to have to sand out bubbles on that, because I'll never get the satin finish to come back to the exact same sheen. Plus these will be quite large boxes.
jbateman said:
Hi,
I used this waterbased urethane paint from Sherwin Williams.
Very amazing stuff. Tough and ultra fast drying (5 minutes on a warm day in the sunlight).
Very thick in the can, so you need to reduce (with water) about 40%. It sprays smooth at higher pressure (65-80psi). Sanding is easy and doesn't clog the paper.
Tintable in a wide range of colours.
Results, colour sanded and polished, no clear coat:
Attachments
MJL21193 said:
A pigmented lacquer you say? does this yield more of a hard candy look than a wet mirror look?
Can you recommend a good lacquer and pigment source?
Do you think my $60 husky sprayer is up to the job with lacquer? it did a great job with the paint, virtually no orange peel at all.
Im going to do some digging on water based lacquers, see if its something i should try.
thanks for the info man,
tech9_79 said:
Sorry to hear about you paint system incompatibility problems. As mentioned already you shouldn't mix and match differing types of paints. A fool proof way to avoid this is use the same paints from the same range from the same manufacturer. You'll generally find the respected manufacturers have primers, topcoats, basecoats and clearcoats that are intended to be used together. If your not sure then sound them about choices.
About waterbased finishes - yes the modern waterbased finishes are quite impressive especially when you consider the ones from the 90's.
However the best gloss and depth still comes from a separate clearcoat and basecoat. I doubt there's much difference in durability for the purposes of loudspeaker cabinets. A 3 stage 2k paint system is pretty much the goal but its dangerous and requires professional equipment to spray.
Whether the extra effort and cost is worth that is another thing.
Personally unless your really looking for the type of finish you see on show cars then I can't see the point in using anything other than products such as those that John suggested. They're easy to use, fast drying, durable and good looking.
I've not used Sherwin William but the Lechler waterbased sounds like a comparable products and worked a treat when I tried it out. I still prefer a 3 stage (prime/base/clear) automotive finish but its mainly because of the extra gloss.
The important part in all this is good surface prep and an excellent primer. Get those right and the rest just falls into place.
R-Carpenter said:
I haven't.
That's a coincidence because I just bought a pneumatic DA sander to replace the palm sander. So far I've only has a very brief play with it and haven't seen the results of the swap yet. I'll be able to test drive and see what it offers over the palm sander on the next project.
The pads I have for it are from 3M. They do some of the most respected wet and dry papers so I figured their sanding disc would be a safe bet too.
I'll check out the Mirka ones. I spotted those when ordering the 3M but passed them up as I'd never heard of them.
I hear ya ant, it just quite a bit of work and cleanup without the right setup. Not to mention the lacquer, well stinks. bad.
A one step program thats super hard with a low VOC is pretty appealing. It also looks like the Armorseal 1k comes in a high gloss clear as well. So im betting you can go real deep on the 'wet look'.
John, have you tried it out on any other surfaces? or any other pics you might have? it looks like its meant for concrete at no more than 10% reduction but it seems to have work great for you on your enclosure(metal?)
what type of gun did you use? think my husky can handle it?
husky
A one step program thats super hard with a low VOC is pretty appealing. It also looks like the Armorseal 1k comes in a high gloss clear as well. So im betting you can go real deep on the 'wet look'.
John, have you tried it out on any other surfaces? or any other pics you might have? it looks like its meant for concrete at no more than 10% reduction but it seems to have work great for you on your enclosure(metal?)
what type of gun did you use? think my husky can handle it?
husky
tech9_79 said:
I use a $120.00 Campbell Hausfeld gravity feed sprayer. Before I bought that, I had a siphon feed like the Husky. All I can say is there was a world of difference between these, and I wouldn't bother with a siphon feed again.
My compressor is a tad undersized for spraying (2hp Dewalt twin tank portable). Really, with fast drying paint, you need more air to avoid dry overspray.
The case in the picture above is made from MDF and HDF, not metal. I have used it on the baffles of a pair of speakers also.
The spec sheet for this doesn't even recommend spraying, but it sprays very well. The reduction is needed - it's just too thick in the can. Besides, the thinning doesn't seem to affect it.
The clear I have not used, but I would think it has the same performance as the mixed colour.
Attachments
R-Carpenter said:
Slaps self on head. Its a 4hp with 90ltr receiver.
I never thought about that or rather I didn't look into it very thoroughly. Spraying is probably one of the least demanding tasks you can ask of a compressor. You tend to forget that when looking at other air powered tools.
I did try out the DA but only ran it for a few seconds just for kicks. After your post I googled DA sanders and found a forum where a guy had a 5hp/150ltr compressor and gave up on his air DA. His general sentiment was to buy an electric one as its much more economical in the long run:
http://www.volkszone.co.uk/VZi/showthread.php?t=328851
So I very, very much doubt I'll have the air to power it correctly. Guess I've been suckered by ebay once again, the ad stated a low air consumption of 4cfm with 60psi. Reading further however, there's no such thing as a decent or even useful low air consumption DA sander.
Ah well, I still have the palm sander to be going on with and I only dropped £25 on the air DA. Guess I'll have to save my pennies for one of the 240v models. They appear to be around £150 for a brand make.
I'll give it a go tomorrow just to make sure I don't have a magical low consumption DA sander on my hands, I also better check my lottery ticket too because if the DA works out then I'll have probably won.
Yep spraying with warm or hot air can cause pin holing or air pockets in the finish and also excess orange peel.
Phew!!! I thought you spend like $200 to $300 for something like Dynabrade.
http://www.dynabrade.com/index.html
Good pneumatic sender cost a lot of money. It eats up less air (yet allot) and lasts forever. I was looking into them mainly for doing wet sanding and polishing, exactly the same reason you did.
I am not sure why Pipkins sander didn't run, perhaps it was broken. Normally they will run from any air compressor with the tank, it's just a question of how big the reserve is.
In US electricity is not cheap so this setup with small to medium size Air Compressor doesn't make sense for us.
My neighbor owns a rotary screw 440volt 3 phase 25hp with huge tank. He loves pneumatic tools.
http://www.dynabrade.com/index.html
Good pneumatic sender cost a lot of money. It eats up less air (yet allot) and lasts forever. I was looking into them mainly for doing wet sanding and polishing, exactly the same reason you did.
I am not sure why Pipkins sander didn't run, perhaps it was broken. Normally they will run from any air compressor with the tank, it's just a question of how big the reserve is.
In US electricity is not cheap so this setup with small to medium size Air Compressor doesn't make sense for us.
My neighbor owns a rotary screw 440volt 3 phase 25hp with huge tank. He loves pneumatic tools.
Hello ShinOBIWAN.
A couple of post back you mentioned spraying 10 coats of primer and rubbing down between coats .Why not use 4 coats of high fill primer ,guide coat it and rub down once to get a flat finish .
With top coats you can guide coat them as well rub down by hand until the guide coat is gone start of with 800 and move upto 2000.
With compressor tanks I have found cast tanks to be better than alloy or steal they seem to generate less moisture .
Cheers.
A couple of post back you mentioned spraying 10 coats of primer and rubbing down between coats .Why not use 4 coats of high fill primer ,guide coat it and rub down once to get a flat finish .
With top coats you can guide coat them as well rub down by hand until the guide coat is gone start of with 800 and move upto 2000.
With compressor tanks I have found cast tanks to be better than alloy or steal they seem to generate less moisture .
Cheers.
R-Carpenter said:My neighbor owns a rotary screw 440volt 3 phase 25hp with huge tank. He loves pneumatic tools.
Tell him he can have this DA. Gave it a good run this evening and your right, it uses immense amounts of air when under load. I had to raise the pressure to 5 bar when sanding a bit of MDF otherwise the thing wouldn't spin very fast. The noise from the air rushing about is silly too. The compressor was running virtually non stop, it just didn't have a chance to catch up. I only have a light duty machine, its one of the oil less types with the teflon coated cylinders and pistons. They're made to run quietly and provide very clean air because of the lack of oil but heat from long running is known to considerably shorten their life span.
No serious air tools for me I feel.
56oval said:
Hi,
Yes, I guess you could do that. It'd certainly cut down on a little work.
Problem with sanding between coats is that your constantly removing material you've just sprayed. Its kinda like two steps forward one step back with regards to film thickness buildup. But it does get you a very flat surface to work from.
MJL21193 said:
Hi John,
I've got a brain like a sieve... I know we've discussed this before, but can't remember the answer... I take it you're still using a solvent based (2K?) urethane on the bare MDF first? I.e. you use that as the primer and the waterbased as the colour coat? And that's followed by a 2K clear?
Hi,
I'm not John, but some of us in the Northwest have had good luck with Glidden Urethane Floor enamel. It can be used over a dust-free, raw MDF surface. It isn't a bad idea to apply a couple of preliminary coats to the glue joint areas and use the paint as a filler which is sanded down to hide the seams and raw edges. This is followed by a couple of coats of paint, allowed to dry and cure then sanded, followed by a couple more coats of paint. This also allowed to cure, sanded with the finer grades of sandpaper until it's uniformly flat, then your Urethane gloss clear is applied, using the same sequence.
John Nail, one of our best diy speaker designers came up with this some years ago and has produced not only many great sounding speakers, but also outstanding finishes on them. As an interesting side note, John usually applies the paint with foam rollers. It requires a little more sanding later, but it's simple, cheap (you don't need much equipment) and the results can be outstanding. He did use a high nap roller on a couple of his designs a few years back, and the stippled surface looked great with the gloss paint as well. See them here:
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10817
At last Summer's Vashon Island meet John brought his "Purple Puppies", which had a beautiful bright purple finish that was universally praised for the quality of the finish. I don't have any decent photos of those unfortunately.
The moral is, at least with sold colors, you don't need to have an expensive spray rig to produce an outstanding finish. I might add, that the Classic Cars (Packard, Cadillac, Dusenberg, etc.) of the 30's seen at the auto shows, all had their original paint jobs done with a brush and a "lot" of polishing.
Try it out on an old junk speaker and see for yourself
Best Regards,
TerryO
I'm not John, but some of us in the Northwest have had good luck with Glidden Urethane Floor enamel. It can be used over a dust-free, raw MDF surface. It isn't a bad idea to apply a couple of preliminary coats to the glue joint areas and use the paint as a filler which is sanded down to hide the seams and raw edges. This is followed by a couple of coats of paint, allowed to dry and cure then sanded, followed by a couple more coats of paint. This also allowed to cure, sanded with the finer grades of sandpaper until it's uniformly flat, then your Urethane gloss clear is applied, using the same sequence.
John Nail, one of our best diy speaker designers came up with this some years ago and has produced not only many great sounding speakers, but also outstanding finishes on them. As an interesting side note, John usually applies the paint with foam rollers. It requires a little more sanding later, but it's simple, cheap (you don't need much equipment) and the results can be outstanding. He did use a high nap roller on a couple of his designs a few years back, and the stippled surface looked great with the gloss paint as well. See them here:
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10817
At last Summer's Vashon Island meet John brought his "Purple Puppies", which had a beautiful bright purple finish that was universally praised for the quality of the finish. I don't have any decent photos of those unfortunately.
The moral is, at least with sold colors, you don't need to have an expensive spray rig to produce an outstanding finish. I might add, that the Classic Cars (Packard, Cadillac, Dusenberg, etc.) of the 30's seen at the auto shows, all had their original paint jobs done with a brush and a "lot" of polishing.
Try it out on an old junk speaker and see for yourself
Best Regards,
TerryO
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.