Well, since many have commented, 7 months of frustration is an unfortunately long time.
The problem with the OP was the inability to measure early and find targeted solutions, so he floundered. I'm sorry this happened! A little measurement and guidance would have really cut this down a lot.
Best,
E
The problem with the OP was the inability to measure early and find targeted solutions, so he floundered. I'm sorry this happened! A little measurement and guidance would have really cut this down a lot.
Best,
E
Just a learning opportunity... 
I had the 2 years of failure by which time I had to acknowledge that the expensive 24 bit dac I designed with transformer based IV and tube output stage wasn't meeting my performance objectives. (I gave it away and that person is much happier with it than I was.) I replaced it with a Sony HAP which truthfully is both better sounding and much nicer to use than what it replaced.
There's been a lot of good advice offered here. Seems like lots of new things for you to try. Your wood working skills are excellent, far better than mine. Perhaps next go around build a prototype cheaply to test ideas and combinations of drivers.
I had the 2 years of failure by which time I had to acknowledge that the expensive 24 bit dac I designed with transformer based IV and tube output stage wasn't meeting my performance objectives. (I gave it away and that person is much happier with it than I was.) I replaced it with a Sony HAP which truthfully is both better sounding and much nicer to use than what it replaced.There's been a lot of good advice offered here. Seems like lots of new things for you to try. Your wood working skills are excellent, far better than mine. Perhaps next go around build a prototype cheaply to test ideas and combinations of drivers.
Sorry for not getting back, I was busy picking up a pair of QLS-1 speakers. As you might guess everything else instantly took a backseat.
I'm not giving up on these home builds, but I think a trip to the library while I enjoy some music and do some reading on crossover and design.
Those pics were taken while I was doing mods, so they were pretty much torn down. The new dome was being tested, and dampening was removed.
I'm not giving up on these home builds, but I think a trip to the library while I enjoy some music and do some reading on crossover and design.
Those pics were taken while I was doing mods, so they were pretty much torn down. The new dome was being tested, and dampening was removed.
I've tried to explain it. Your worst issue appears to be a gutless tweeter. The woofer breakup isn't too bad, being mostly at 3kHz. I don't know what Madisound came up with for a crossover, but trust me on this, you need a 2.5kHz crossover into a robust tweeter. Otherwise you get 5kHz cone breakup from the 6" paper mid too, and it is best to take that down 6dB with a notch anyway. Which is the 22R + 1uF here across 0.82mH here.
TBH, we are being very exacting here. Most people would be pleased enough with the sound. Have a look at your Madisound schematic. If it is wildly different from this, that is where work is needed. Tweeter? Well, the circuit I did would roughly work with a H1212-06 27TBFC/G.
TBH, we are being very exacting here. Most people would be pleased enough with the sound. Have a look at your Madisound schematic. If it is wildly different from this, that is where work is needed. Tweeter? Well, the circuit I did would roughly work with a H1212-06 27TBFC/G.
Attachments
7, is that a simulation using my drivers? I printed it out to save regardless. The pics that were posted show the Madisound crossover, the upper portion is for the tweeter, the lower is the mid, with the 2 big black caps. The darker pic shows the bass circuit. It's a crapload of parts.
When I get back to these, it's going t be a few weeks. I'll start a new thread because I'll have my laptop back and can post pics myself showing details of everything including all the leap stuff. Maybe we can dissect it and it will help me understand.
Nothing has fallen on deaf eyes or ears, everyone's input and help is very much appreciated!
When I get back to these, it's going t be a few weeks. I'll start a new thread because I'll have my laptop back and can post pics myself showing details of everything including all the leap stuff. Maybe we can dissect it and it will help me understand.
Nothing has fallen on deaf eyes or ears, everyone's input and help is very much appreciated!
Hmm... this isn't easy...
Now we might be looking for something like this:
The bass filter is simplistic enough, just an added resistor for phase.
The mid filter has a LOT of parts, so might be third order.
The tweeter filter has an 0.1mH coil, so ought to be a 4 ohm filter. The Caps look quite high value, so it might cross quite low, but I really can't conclude much.
FWIW, I resurrected my SEAS metal tweeter tonight with new ferrofluid. They really sound very good when set up right with a 8.2R/0.68uF Zobel. But the rest of the speaker was a phasey disaster, which I must rebuild tomorrow. I tried to do it too simple. So I know how you feel.
Now we might be looking for something like this:
The bass filter is simplistic enough, just an added resistor for phase.
The mid filter has a LOT of parts, so might be third order.
The tweeter filter has an 0.1mH coil, so ought to be a 4 ohm filter. The Caps look quite high value, so it might cross quite low, but I really can't conclude much.
FWIW, I resurrected my SEAS metal tweeter tonight with new ferrofluid. They really sound very good when set up right with a 8.2R/0.68uF Zobel. But the rest of the speaker was a phasey disaster, which I must rebuild tomorrow. I tried to do it too simple. So I know how you feel.
For the most part, I think that if you want good sound for a reasonable price, your money is better spent on commercial speakers.
Although I love tinkering on DIY projects, my reference speakers have been commercial speakers most of the time.
You can get a lot of loudspeaker for $500-$1000, particularly if you buy used.
Although I love tinkering on DIY projects, my reference speakers have been commercial speakers most of the time.
You can get a lot of loudspeaker for $500-$1000, particularly if you buy used.
I spent a few years trying to figure out the crossover voodoo.
Study study study, try try try and I can't hear a difference, zobel will help, not for me.
I gave up on crossovers. After tearing apart 30+ consoles if I use more then 1 speaker in a cabinet I do it like they did in the old days.
Tweeter gets a 1or 2 uf cap mids get anywhere from a 6 to 15 uf cap.
I built a little board just for trying different caps on the mids and highs.
Making the box is easy WinISD has worked perfectly for me every time.
Woofers are easy, the other 2 not at all.
I love active (I mix sound for small bands use a rane electronic crossover)
but I don't like having 3 amps for the living room.
That aggravation forced me into single full range drivers and I have stayed there.
Now when I hear multiple drivers in a speaker that is what I hear.
Multiple drivers.
Your room is 50% of the speaker.
That is why we call it a hobby.
Study study study, try try try and I can't hear a difference, zobel will help, not for me.
I gave up on crossovers. After tearing apart 30+ consoles if I use more then 1 speaker in a cabinet I do it like they did in the old days.
Tweeter gets a 1or 2 uf cap mids get anywhere from a 6 to 15 uf cap.
I built a little board just for trying different caps on the mids and highs.
Making the box is easy WinISD has worked perfectly for me every time.
Woofers are easy, the other 2 not at all.
I love active (I mix sound for small bands use a rane electronic crossover)
but I don't like having 3 amps for the living room.
That aggravation forced me into single full range drivers and I have stayed there.
Now when I hear multiple drivers in a speaker that is what I hear.
Multiple drivers.
Your room is 50% of the speaker.
That is why we call it a hobby.
Though I do not have a degree I've worked as an engineer in the automotive and aerospace industry for over 30 years and know everything about how to make gears and turbine blades and transmission housings and compressor cases along with all the tooling and can run many of the machines needed to make these components. Yet electronics baffle me. I've been working on a tube amp now for 6 months. I'm hoping to finish it in the next month or so. I'm thinking that since I can't see the electrons moving it adds to the mystique.
That's why we need a range of tools to see them moving.
A decent scope and multi-meter are vital.
I also have LC meter and a semiconductor analyser.
I have been in electronics for 35+ years and still dont always get the maths of electronics. But I do have an intuitive feel for how things work which helps.
+1
Change out the mid-range.
Easy as 1,2,3, to make adapter rings with mdf
Save that mid-woofer for another day.
Change out the mid-range.
Easy as 1,2,3, to make adapter rings with mdf
Save that mid-woofer for another day.
You don't need to have a full fledged measurement setup to be able to take measurement and spot obvious mistake like reverse phase or a tweeter that's too hot.
I've been able to build and design speakers for years but to make them really sing, it only happen last year and now I know how to do it and what to look for. Don't give up just yet! You have good drivers and you can make this work.
Since you already spent so much money on this setup you OWE yourself a measurement mic! JUST BUY ONE! You can start cheap with Dayton Audio iMM-6 and start taking measurement with HolmImpulse (pretty much the easiest measurement package). Ask questions, you'll get replies!
Learn to use Moving Mic Measurement (MMM) technique. It's when I started doing in room averaged measurement that my speaker started sounding good. A speaker forms a system with your room. You need to know how they interface with each other! Flat speakers don't sound good for everyone or everywhere... My room is super bright so flat is unbearable.
Also, aside from tweeter level, you need to get your BSC right otherwise your whole speaker will sound off!
Good luck and don't give up just yet! You're half way there!
Chuck
I've been able to build and design speakers for years but to make them really sing, it only happen last year and now I know how to do it and what to look for. Don't give up just yet! You have good drivers and you can make this work.
Since you already spent so much money on this setup you OWE yourself a measurement mic! JUST BUY ONE! You can start cheap with Dayton Audio iMM-6 and start taking measurement with HolmImpulse (pretty much the easiest measurement package). Ask questions, you'll get replies!
Learn to use Moving Mic Measurement (MMM) technique. It's when I started doing in room averaged measurement that my speaker started sounding good. A speaker forms a system with your room. You need to know how they interface with each other! Flat speakers don't sound good for everyone or everywhere... My room is super bright so flat is unbearable.
Also, aside from tweeter level, you need to get your BSC right otherwise your whole speaker will sound off!
Good luck and don't give up just yet! You're half way there!
Chuck
Approximation
I agree about second hand speakers/equipment, great values can be had.
This might not be perfect measurement technique, but it gives an idea and costs nothing. I measured some Mezzo Utopia's (my main setup), (any reasonable stuff might do) with a free phone app and sound files burned to disk. (Please don't laugh !) Compared them with Stereophiles review, quite close really (OK....a bit out but good enough !).
Then measured my own (son's) finished speakers in the same way. It was non too shabby, closer still after tweeking !
His ears were impressed too ! So...Job done.
Took a couple of hours and helped.
R
I agree about second hand speakers/equipment, great values can be had.
This might not be perfect measurement technique, but it gives an idea and costs nothing. I measured some Mezzo Utopia's (my main setup), (any reasonable stuff might do) with a free phone app and sound files burned to disk. (Please don't laugh !) Compared them with Stereophiles review, quite close really (OK....a bit out but good enough !).
Then measured my own (son's) finished speakers in the same way. It was non too shabby, closer still after tweeking !
His ears were impressed too ! So...Job done.
Took a couple of hours and helped.
R
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