I've been living with the long horns for quite a while now and I like them.
However, today Jack (aka NSM) was over with his JBl 2225J 15" drivers. These are 16ohm drivers.
He's kindly lending them to me.
I loaded them into my shorter / larger throat round exponential mid bass horns for a trial - I have a pair of JBL 2220H's on a slow boat from Canada arriving at some point so the 2225 are for loan and a test out.
Initial thoughts were that they were a bit lighter on bass compared to my Kappa 15A's on the same horn, but as we played all sorts of stuff, but centred around rock and heavy rock / bassy stuff they got better and better.
2 scenarios cam to mind. One is that they were NOS as they look absolutely mint and we are running them in and they were freeing up. The other is that they are little used and have sat on a shelf face down for years and years and the suspension etc went through a similar freeing up.
By the end of the listening session we could not really fault the bass coming form them.
Jack asked me to turn the tapped horns off and on at several points and then commented on how much sub 90Hz stuff they do and how well they do it.
A bass scale on one track from a 5 string bass all the way up appeared completely linear and transitionless or rather free from transition issue.
I think this is attributable to the proper time alignment factor - only possible since Najda DSP has been on the scene.
Note this was on 4th order X/O's on Tapped horn and Mid bass horn.
Switching between 4th order on the above and 8th order it depended largely on the material being played whether we favoured one or the other...
We also agreed it's a different delivery of bass compared to Jack's system. The front loaded bass bins vs the tapped horns. One theory was that as the bins don't go so low, the way you perceive music as a whole is slightly different. More here means a different perception there. Then of course there is the differing driver, box/cab etc etc.
We also benefited from a served lunch and beer
- thanks Marie xxx
So I have high hopes for the 2220's that model slightly better than the 2225's do on my round exponentials. Lower Qt among other things.
Further playing with Hornresp indicates that really I only need a 10cm throat extension and only a throat reduction of around 1cm radius.
I can start with that and go further if I feel I want to. From what I heard today the 2220's might be just fine in what I have!
Question to Rewind: You mentioned the JBL drivers you had tried were "dead toned". Where the 2225's or 2220's among them?
However, today Jack (aka NSM) was over with his JBl 2225J 15" drivers. These are 16ohm drivers.
He's kindly lending them to me.
I loaded them into my shorter / larger throat round exponential mid bass horns for a trial - I have a pair of JBL 2220H's on a slow boat from Canada arriving at some point so the 2225 are for loan and a test out.
Initial thoughts were that they were a bit lighter on bass compared to my Kappa 15A's on the same horn, but as we played all sorts of stuff, but centred around rock and heavy rock / bassy stuff they got better and better.
2 scenarios cam to mind. One is that they were NOS as they look absolutely mint and we are running them in and they were freeing up. The other is that they are little used and have sat on a shelf face down for years and years and the suspension etc went through a similar freeing up.
By the end of the listening session we could not really fault the bass coming form them.
Jack asked me to turn the tapped horns off and on at several points and then commented on how much sub 90Hz stuff they do and how well they do it.
A bass scale on one track from a 5 string bass all the way up appeared completely linear and transitionless or rather free from transition issue.
I think this is attributable to the proper time alignment factor - only possible since Najda DSP has been on the scene.
Note this was on 4th order X/O's on Tapped horn and Mid bass horn.
Switching between 4th order on the above and 8th order it depended largely on the material being played whether we favoured one or the other...
We also agreed it's a different delivery of bass compared to Jack's system. The front loaded bass bins vs the tapped horns. One theory was that as the bins don't go so low, the way you perceive music as a whole is slightly different. More here means a different perception there. Then of course there is the differing driver, box/cab etc etc.
We also benefited from a served lunch and beer
- thanks Marie xxxSo I have high hopes for the 2220's that model slightly better than the 2225's do on my round exponentials. Lower Qt among other things.
Further playing with Hornresp indicates that really I only need a 10cm throat extension and only a throat reduction of around 1cm radius.
I can start with that and go further if I feel I want to. From what I heard today the 2220's might be just fine in what I have!
Question to Rewind: You mentioned the JBL drivers you had tried were "dead toned". Where the 2225's or 2220's among them?
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15" JBL
A bit more on the veteran JBL 15" drivers.
Here's a pic of how the JBL2225's look - I like the ribbed look
The 2220's look like this (not as cool but does not matter as you can't really see them in the horns).
Both share the same piston area which is a little greater than other 15"'ers I've used (due to deeper cone).
I keep meaning to measure the 2225's, but they sound good as they are with the slight room correction in place for the Eminence Kappa 15A's.
Be interesting to do to see if its the horn, room or driver that one is correcting... Probably a bit of all.
A bit more on the veteran JBL 15" drivers.
Here's a pic of how the JBL2225's look - I like the ribbed look
The 2220's look like this (not as cool but does not matter as you can't really see them in the horns).
Both share the same piston area which is a little greater than other 15"'ers I've used (due to deeper cone).
I keep meaning to measure the 2225's, but they sound good as they are with the slight room correction in place for the Eminence Kappa 15A's.
Be interesting to do to see if its the horn, room or driver that one is correcting... Probably a bit of all.
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Interesting.
I will be using the 2220 in a fairly large throated horn - so may work.
2225's seem more available and cheaper here.
I'll write up what I find of course
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The 2220's arrived safe and sound!
More texture to the upper bass coming from the 2220's I would say.
Lower down it's a bit more difficult to deduce big differences at this stage.
Some JBL users have commented that the 2220's do not get on so well in small throat horns - I have quite a large throat on these at the moment.
In fact only 0.5cm radius bigger than the ideal Hornresp model for the 2220's! Would I hear the difference - perhaps, but perhaps not.
So on to listening to full playback.
Yes they are efficient indeed. Blending nicely with the JBL 2482's on the upper end of things. Low end is fine too.
Transitioning Piano is nice.
So lots to listen to now and settle in with them and then a measure and optimise in DSP X/O. But they are sounding just fine so no rush.
Rare over here as they are, and for the dosh I paid I am very pleased with them.
More texture to the upper bass coming from the 2220's I would say.
Lower down it's a bit more difficult to deduce big differences at this stage.
Some JBL users have commented that the 2220's do not get on so well in small throat horns - I have quite a large throat on these at the moment.
In fact only 0.5cm radius bigger than the ideal Hornresp model for the 2220's! Would I hear the difference - perhaps, but perhaps not.
So on to listening to full playback.
Yes they are efficient indeed. Blending nicely with the JBL 2482's on the upper end of things. Low end is fine too.
Transitioning Piano is nice.
So lots to listen to now and settle in with them and then a measure and optimise in DSP X/O. But they are sounding just fine so no rush.
Rare over here as they are, and for the dosh I paid I am very pleased with them.
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Late answer, sorry. I was away partying in NY.
Answer to your question: No, I have just tried JBL 12" 2202H midrange drivers.
About your Nadja time alignment. Is it something special that a Minidsp would not be able to do? I can delay 0-9 milliseconds.
Looking forward to hear a second opinion on these JBL 15" drivers.
For some reason I expect a modern driver like the Eminence 15A Pro to sound fresher than an outdated JBL driver. Anything you noticed?
Answer to your question: No, I have just tried JBL 12" 2202H midrange drivers.
About your Nadja time alignment. Is it something special that a Minidsp would not be able to do? I can delay 0-9 milliseconds.
Looking forward to hear a second opinion on these JBL 15" drivers.
For some reason I expect a modern driver like the Eminence 15A Pro to sound fresher than an outdated JBL driver. Anything you noticed?
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Must have been a long party, in the city that never sleeps! - you must be exhausted or still coming down from the high?
I don't think Najda is special with regard to time alignment. miniDSP can surely do it too.
I haven't got through so much music on the 2220's yet. They do not sound un-fresh though.
I remember when I did a lot of 6SN7 tube rolling on a 6SN7 / KT88 PP amp I had built...
I went from Kenrad blackglass tubes all warm, bassy and cuddly, through many different brands and types, on to 1940's VT-231 white label Synvania's. You'd think 1940's mellow, swing, Glen Miller bigband type of sound... No, no, no!
The brightest most, electric (no pun intended) hardwired sounding 6SN7 I ever tried!
It's a bit similar with the 2220's, they are tuneful and fast. The lighter cone I guess? You get good initial punch due to the speed, how much force is there to back up the initial swift movement is perhaps the difference to the 2225's.
Bit like later Tannoy DC's, they were chasing watts and sacrificed efficiency along the way, bigger amps came along - many ways to skin a cat.
I think they play up to the 2482's more cleanly.
They are certainly foot tapping on upbeat / rockier stuff and they do the mellow bass guitar stuff well and deep enough to meet the Tapped horns just fine.
At this rate I'll have to put the 2225's back in to re-evaluate the difference.
TBH, I feel I could live with either.
Still more time needed and I've enough of that in this hobby
I don't think Najda is special with regard to time alignment. miniDSP can surely do it too.
I haven't got through so much music on the 2220's yet. They do not sound un-fresh though.
I remember when I did a lot of 6SN7 tube rolling on a 6SN7 / KT88 PP amp I had built...
I went from Kenrad blackglass tubes all warm, bassy and cuddly, through many different brands and types, on to 1940's VT-231 white label Synvania's. You'd think 1940's mellow, swing, Glen Miller bigband type of sound... No, no, no!
The brightest most, electric (no pun intended) hardwired sounding 6SN7 I ever tried!
It's a bit similar with the 2220's, they are tuneful and fast. The lighter cone I guess? You get good initial punch due to the speed, how much force is there to back up the initial swift movement is perhaps the difference to the 2225's.
Bit like later Tannoy DC's, they were chasing watts and sacrificed efficiency along the way, bigger amps came along - many ways to skin a cat.
I think they play up to the 2482's more cleanly.
They are certainly foot tapping on upbeat / rockier stuff and they do the mellow bass guitar stuff well and deep enough to meet the Tapped horns just fine.
At this rate I'll have to put the 2225's back in to re-evaluate the difference.
TBH, I feel I could live with either.
Still more time needed and I've enough of that in this hobby
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Yeah, slept for a week. -__-
This is exactly what I am after. Something big and muscular with strong midbass but smooth into the midrange. Right now the only driver that can accomplish the midrange smoothness I require is a Fane 10" with little below ~180Hz. It has no business in your horn, but sound so good anyway. Very little lower midbass though, which was the reason for building such a large horn. I can't imagine that there would be a 15" that can top it above let say ~300Hz.
On the other hand, the stack of Meyer drivers can cover most things below and I am not sure I want to go lower than 200Hz using horns.
Hottattoo: Thanks for your input. Many praise Altec Lansing and Great Plains Audio. Never find them cheap enough in this part of the world.
What kind of front loaded horn did you use? If it was short with a large back chamber, it may have sounded a lot different than our round horns with 12 (?) Liter back chambers.
About your Altec 515B driver. The GPA 515G is mentioned during the development process of this horn speaker:
"The woofers were from Altec's 16-inch 515G Series which incorporates their largest 3.74kg Ferrite magnet structure, an edge-wound aluminum flat wire voice coil, a light cone assembly, low-distortion cloth suspension and a die-cast aluminum frame. The 30lbs 515-16G has an 11.3-ohm voice coil, a free air resonance at 37Hz, a BL factor of 25.1, a magnetic flux density of 15,000 gauss and—depending on chosen horn—a sensitivity from 103dB to 108dB."
"We are very lucky to have Cyrille Pinton on board whose work on the final 15" woofer was vital to the results you heard. With Great Plains' Altec reissue not up to our standards, we were hard pressed to find the right driver for our application. Cyrille's comprehensive rebuild of a commercial platform made all the difference**."
** Cyrille Pinton: "The 28g paper cone is custom-made for us, the ultra-high compliance cloth surround is a special very small double-roll design. The goal was max radiating surface of 908cm² with low Fs and linear excursion within a small ±1.5mm Xmax on an underhung edge-wound ribbon voice coil of 6 grams. This parameter is always a trade-off between linearity and SPL but since horn loading gives us high output from low excursions, our focus was linearity. In the final driver version, we worked on small improvements to increase Xmax to ±2mm and bump up sensitivity a touch. The motor is a Neodymium construction with 1.3T magnetic flux density in the gap."
I wonder what mystery driver they used instead of the GPA 515G? I bet the "small improvements" was a new surround which would make it a little looser to increase the xmax a little. It should not be too difficult to find a very light 15" cone and recone it in a nD magnet structure with a suitable surround.
What kind of front loaded horn did you use? If it was short with a large back chamber, it may have sounded a lot different than our round horns with 12 (?) Liter back chambers.
About your Altec 515B driver. The GPA 515G is mentioned during the development process of this horn speaker:
"The woofers were from Altec's 16-inch 515G Series which incorporates their largest 3.74kg Ferrite magnet structure, an edge-wound aluminum flat wire voice coil, a light cone assembly, low-distortion cloth suspension and a die-cast aluminum frame. The 30lbs 515-16G has an 11.3-ohm voice coil, a free air resonance at 37Hz, a BL factor of 25.1, a magnetic flux density of 15,000 gauss and—depending on chosen horn—a sensitivity from 103dB to 108dB."
"We are very lucky to have Cyrille Pinton on board whose work on the final 15" woofer was vital to the results you heard. With Great Plains' Altec reissue not up to our standards, we were hard pressed to find the right driver for our application. Cyrille's comprehensive rebuild of a commercial platform made all the difference**."
** Cyrille Pinton: "The 28g paper cone is custom-made for us, the ultra-high compliance cloth surround is a special very small double-roll design. The goal was max radiating surface of 908cm² with low Fs and linear excursion within a small ±1.5mm Xmax on an underhung edge-wound ribbon voice coil of 6 grams. This parameter is always a trade-off between linearity and SPL but since horn loading gives us high output from low excursions, our focus was linearity. In the final driver version, we worked on small improvements to increase Xmax to ±2mm and bump up sensitivity a touch. The motor is a Neodymium construction with 1.3T magnetic flux density in the gap."
I wonder what mystery driver they used instead of the GPA 515G? I bet the "small improvements" was a new surround which would make it a little looser to increase the xmax a little. It should not be too difficult to find a very light 15" cone and recone it in a nD magnet structure with a suitable surround.
Attachments
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Some great info there.
I'd love to try those Altec drivers but rare and pricey so out for me too at the moment.
50Hz must need a big horn?
Nice looking horns in that 2nd pic. I guess there is a sub or two in there somewhere?
Unless the sidewalls are very thick they look to be quite large throats / not so long a horn.
They don't look like they would play down to the depths I'd need on their own?
Regarding coning - I guess it would be be possible to put 2220 cones in a 2225 and get the bigger magnet and lighter cone double. I've not checked the voice coil dimensions though. It's not a project I'm ever likely to take on either.
I listened on for a while last night and am liking the 2220's - It's got me wanting to put the system on again and again, and that is always a good sign.
I'd love to try those Altec drivers but rare and pricey so out for me too at the moment.
50Hz must need a big horn?
Nice looking horns in that 2nd pic. I guess there is a sub or two in there somewhere?
Unless the sidewalls are very thick they look to be quite large throats / not so long a horn.
They don't look like they would play down to the depths I'd need on their own?
Regarding coning - I guess it would be be possible to put 2220 cones in a 2225 and get the bigger magnet and lighter cone double. I've not checked the voice coil dimensions though. It's not a project I'm ever likely to take on either.
I listened on for a while last night and am liking the 2220's - It's got me wanting to put the system on again and again, and that is always a good sign.
I currently cross at 330Hz.
I have long range plans for a 140Hz tractrix mid horn (about 90cm long and 82cm in diameter). Then the 2482's should get down to 300Hz no problem.
I have long range plans for a 140Hz tractrix mid horn (about 90cm long and 82cm in diameter). Then the 2482's should get down to 300Hz no problem.
Speedysteve7 & others
After talking to Dr. Bruce Edgar and listening to his Titan speaker system years ago at some audio shows I was convinced that a front loaded mid bass horn was the only way to go. Bruce was very insistent that the key to a good horn audio system was the mid bass horn. Since I was remodeling the house for a home theater/ audio room I wanted the biggest mid bass horn I could fit through the front door. I visited Bruce at his home and listened to his field coil Titan system for hours. Bruce came up with a design and I made it since I am not good with computer programs.
My horn uses a pair of Altec 515b's ( 16 ohms in parallel ) in a hypex/exponential horn that measures as follows:
The rectangular mouth measures 44.5" high x 34" wide and is 36" deep + 12" deep for the rear speaker enclosure. The speaker throat's are 10" x 10.5" with a 16" long wedge between the driver throats following the side wall curve. The top and bottom horn panels are flat and have a 12 degree taper to the speaker enclosure.
Construction:
I made 5 ribs out of 3/4" plywood 40" long which had the horn profile and spaced them out on a piece of 3/4' plywood that was 48" X48" and screwed them down.
Then I bent 4 layers of 3/8" bendable plywood ( wiggle board ) using unibond 800 expoxy between each layer and clamping everything down for 24+ hours. Then I filed/ sanded the sides so they were "perfect "and mounted the top and bottom plates which were double pieces of 3/4' birch plywood glued and screwed. The speaker chamber is made out of double 3/4" birch ply and measures 23" wide x 36" high and 12" deep and well braced.
The inside and outside of the horn has oak veneer as well as the speaker chamber. The outside side walls of the horn also has solid oak 1/2" thick wainscot nailed and epoxied on. I mounted 6 casers to the bottom of the horn along with 2 heavy aluminum bars which have 4 heavy duty, adjustable feet.
The rest of the speaker system consist of:
Tweeter- Tad et-703
Upper mid range- Tad 2001 in solid wood 1000hz round tractrix horn ( not mounted yet )
Low midrange- Jbl 2441 driver converted to field coil ( Dr. Bruce )and Tru-extant diaphragms in a 26" solid wood Sierra Brooks tractrix horn. Lambda variable power supplies.
Dr. Bruce 6db passive crossover was used.
I am sure the system is not perfect and needs fine tuning but it sounds GREAT !!!
The mid bass horns were made to fit the space I had and did not follow a " perfect " horns-rep formula but the results were way beyond my expectations. The construction of the horns was a good learning experience and fun but a ROYAL PIA.
I am still busy with construction and no measurements were taken yet. I will have a friend take some measurements in the near future.
Dr. Bruce is totally correct on his view of mid bass horns. The dynamics, power, and efficiency are something to experience. I suspect my mid bass horn is horn loaded to around 80hz or so and with direct radiator output down to 55-60hz up to the 500hz crossover point at around 108 db 1 watt. I am sure I could have used 1 15" driver per horn to good effect but had 4, so I used them. I refused to pad down the mid range horn because the mid bass was less efficient-- and now I don't have to. The mid bass horn is very solid, rigid and heavy like it should be. No box mid bass system can compete against a good front loaded horn IMHO.
After talking to Dr. Bruce Edgar and listening to his Titan speaker system years ago at some audio shows I was convinced that a front loaded mid bass horn was the only way to go. Bruce was very insistent that the key to a good horn audio system was the mid bass horn. Since I was remodeling the house for a home theater/ audio room I wanted the biggest mid bass horn I could fit through the front door. I visited Bruce at his home and listened to his field coil Titan system for hours. Bruce came up with a design and I made it since I am not good with computer programs.
My horn uses a pair of Altec 515b's ( 16 ohms in parallel ) in a hypex/exponential horn that measures as follows:
The rectangular mouth measures 44.5" high x 34" wide and is 36" deep + 12" deep for the rear speaker enclosure. The speaker throat's are 10" x 10.5" with a 16" long wedge between the driver throats following the side wall curve. The top and bottom horn panels are flat and have a 12 degree taper to the speaker enclosure.
Construction:
I made 5 ribs out of 3/4" plywood 40" long which had the horn profile and spaced them out on a piece of 3/4' plywood that was 48" X48" and screwed them down.
Then I bent 4 layers of 3/8" bendable plywood ( wiggle board ) using unibond 800 expoxy between each layer and clamping everything down for 24+ hours. Then I filed/ sanded the sides so they were "perfect "and mounted the top and bottom plates which were double pieces of 3/4' birch plywood glued and screwed. The speaker chamber is made out of double 3/4" birch ply and measures 23" wide x 36" high and 12" deep and well braced.
The inside and outside of the horn has oak veneer as well as the speaker chamber. The outside side walls of the horn also has solid oak 1/2" thick wainscot nailed and epoxied on. I mounted 6 casers to the bottom of the horn along with 2 heavy aluminum bars which have 4 heavy duty, adjustable feet.
The rest of the speaker system consist of:
Tweeter- Tad et-703
Upper mid range- Tad 2001 in solid wood 1000hz round tractrix horn ( not mounted yet )
Low midrange- Jbl 2441 driver converted to field coil ( Dr. Bruce )and Tru-extant diaphragms in a 26" solid wood Sierra Brooks tractrix horn. Lambda variable power supplies.
Dr. Bruce 6db passive crossover was used.
I am sure the system is not perfect and needs fine tuning but it sounds GREAT !!!
The mid bass horns were made to fit the space I had and did not follow a " perfect " horns-rep formula but the results were way beyond my expectations. The construction of the horns was a good learning experience and fun but a ROYAL PIA.
I am still busy with construction and no measurements were taken yet. I will have a friend take some measurements in the near future.
Dr. Bruce is totally correct on his view of mid bass horns. The dynamics, power, and efficiency are something to experience. I suspect my mid bass horn is horn loaded to around 80hz or so and with direct radiator output down to 55-60hz up to the 500hz crossover point at around 108 db 1 watt. I am sure I could have used 1 15" driver per horn to good effect but had 4, so I used them. I refused to pad down the mid range horn because the mid bass was less efficient-- and now I don't have to. The mid bass horn is very solid, rigid and heavy like it should be. No box mid bass system can compete against a good front loaded horn IMHO.
300Hz is really cone speaker territory. Even though a compression driver can reproduce incredible detail at 350Hz, a cone speaker sound very different - more natural. I think an unnecessarily complicated combination of ALL OF THEM is the way to go. Sub+15" midbasshorn (or Meyer Milo 120 line array)+ smooth midrange Fane 10"+compression drivers in various sized horns. Only then you can start playing around by muting channel after channel to see what actually contributes with anything substantial.
Hottattoo: I will contact you for details when I build my final horn system/house.
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Could well be. The phenolic diaphragm of the 2482's can do great things low down though. Question is how low. We get away with lower in low SPL home environments.
I don't like the 2482's higher up than I use them - even though JBL claim 5-6K or whatever it is.
I don't like the 2482's higher up than I use them - even though JBL claim 5-6K or whatever it is.
A compression driver is no different than any other kind of driver. The same principles used to annul reactance in a midbass or bass horn still apply. Where in a bass horn you adjust the rear chamber volume to resonate the driver just above the horn's flare rate; with a compression driver you design the horn to meet with the compression driver's resonance. (The resonance of a compression driver is not very tunable) This is the lowest usable frequency for the compression driver. Trying to use a compression driver below its primary resonance results in poor sound. Lastly, forget about trying to remove the compression driver's rear cover to extend the driver's low frequency extension, this also leads to poor sound. A compression driver needs its back chamber otherwise the only thing controlling the diaphragm excursion is the suspension compliance. Sloppy, sloppy sound.
No, I disagree. My Fane Studio 10M and 8M sounds very different from a compression driver. In a horn the 8M resembles more a compression driver in its intensity, yet lack the smooth vibe that the 10M has. I am speaking of just the feeling you get when you sit down and listen to it. I don't know if psycho acoustics is the right words, but there are clear differences between all of them. That being said, I would love to hear a JBL 2482, which may be a great mix between a compression driver and a cone driver, with its 4" diaphragm. I have just tried the Yamaha JA6603 phenolic driver and I have since developed an allergy against phenolic. Even when crossed low they have a bloated, disgusting sound that I don't like. That is just me.
This is true with both midbass horns with cone drivers and compression drivers. Without a back chamber the sound looses focus and whatever low frequency it could produce with the back chamber still attached.
Agree: On the right horn and at hifi volumes the 2482 should do just fine
You should definitely obtain a pair to try. I was lucky getting mine. I started looking some 5 years ago now, and a working pair that looked good but shabby came up on Ebay for not a lot, I snapped them up. They seem rare now and quite pricey!
For me they do just what they need to. No nastiness, they are not intruding in any way and fit right in where they should making themselves heard in a great way. Piano, woodwind and brass, vocals, upper drums and bass all sound great with good tone on them.
I've tried other big format compression drivers and auditioned a few more but come back to the tone of the 2482...
There may of course be even better solution out there, but I am not looking to change anything at this frequency range in my system. They are there to stay.
Change of horn though - maybe
As an aside
"the JBL 2482 was the treble driver of choice in ALL Bill Beer (Keyboard Products) customized Leslies. John Novello from the band Niacin is using a JBL 2482 in his Leslie."
I do like a good Leslie / Hammond sound.
No provenance for hifi use at all but pretty cool all the same