"Re: Ported Midbass?
Don't worry about group delay because of the port. You'll do all the real integration with the EQ, crossover and time alignment anyway. If you have enough power and EQ, there's really no need to use the port. Just change the Q of the crossover (HP) or add the bump with the EQ to fill in the rolloff. Just as valid as the port and easier to fine tune."
"The real drawback is in the transition between midbass and subbass. The group delay is typically larger and the phase shift is larger as well. So the transition and "bass up front" illusion is tough to get right. Having said all this I am working on ported kicks right now. It will be a while but I will report results in my build thread."
Don't worry about group delay because of the port. You'll do all the real integration with the EQ, crossover and time alignment anyway. If you have enough power and EQ, there's really no need to use the port. Just change the Q of the crossover (HP) or add the bump with the EQ to fill in the rolloff. Just as valid as the port and easier to fine tune."
"The real drawback is in the transition between midbass and subbass. The group delay is typically larger and the phase shift is larger as well. So the transition and "bass up front" illusion is tough to get right. Having said all this I am working on ported kicks right now. It will be a while but I will report results in my build thread."
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I just had a horn enthusiast here buying some compression drivers. His plan is a two way with an active sub together with a speaker with a very clean sounding 15" crossed at 1500Hz and a 1" mylar compression driver above that, in a small horn, as small as the smallest AG Trio tweeter horn. I informed him of what a huge compromise this would be on the detail department, and he agreed, but he wanted it to be able to play all kinds of music (like Metallica).
I could not really argue because my system in its current midbass deprived state is only good for acoustic recordings. Not Metallica.
High efficient 15" woofers was his favourite size of woofer, and he saw no problem with barf-reflex, as long as the woofer was efficient enough. He thought bass reflex had an unnecessarily bad reputation, when done like this. It is almost like I want to try it with my Kappa 15A Pro when it gets here, but it is not recommended for some reason.
Will need to find another driver and try it out.
I suggested the very clean 10" SEAS W26, 87dB sensitive woofer, but he agreed with POOH that it would be a mismatch.
When I showed him my replica of Speedysteves horn he was sceptical and wondered how the 15" sound that he is used to is going to sound through such a narrow throat. Myself, I have no idea! But I am very excited to try it out.
I could not really argue because my system in its current midbass deprived state is only good for acoustic recordings. Not Metallica.
High efficient 15" woofers was his favourite size of woofer, and he saw no problem with barf-reflex, as long as the woofer was efficient enough. He thought bass reflex had an unnecessarily bad reputation, when done like this. It is almost like I want to try it with my Kappa 15A Pro when it gets here, but it is not recommended for some reason.
Will need to find another driver and try it out.
I suggested the very clean 10" SEAS W26, 87dB sensitive woofer, but he agreed with POOH that it would be a mismatch.
When I showed him my replica of Speedysteves horn he was sceptical and wondered how the 15" sound that he is used to is going to sound through such a narrow throat. Myself, I have no idea! But I am very excited to try it out.
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Me too and as awesome as it must sound, that doesn't even have a high eccentric audiophile acceptance factor
Well I hit Najda and this is fun...
I put 48dB/oct (8th order) on Tapped and mid bass. Boosted tapped horn by 2dB and mid bass by 1dB as first cut.
Then A/B listened to Nevermind - Nirvana
Like it. Tightened things up, improved speed / punch and made it suitably fake tits bass as Mr Coco would say.
Then I put a high pass on the tapped horns at 30Hz also 8th order. Tried it at 35Hz and 40Hz but went back to 30Hz as 5 string bass / synth bass will hit this.
I took 1dB off the 35Hz PEQ room correction too.
As a further test I put 8th order on everything (bar the tweeter). That kinda compressed things - in a rock sort of way. May be a bit too far have to play backing things off and on until I get it right.
This setup is beginning to kick *** now, mofo betch! its the bomb!
Time for a proper case for Najda.
I put 48dB/oct (8th order) on Tapped and mid bass. Boosted tapped horn by 2dB and mid bass by 1dB as first cut.
Then A/B listened to Nevermind - Nirvana
Like it. Tightened things up, improved speed / punch and made it suitably fake tits bass as Mr Coco would say.
Then I put a high pass on the tapped horns at 30Hz also 8th order. Tried it at 35Hz and 40Hz but went back to 30Hz as 5 string bass / synth bass will hit this.
I took 1dB off the 35Hz PEQ room correction too.
As a further test I put 8th order on everything (bar the tweeter). That kinda compressed things - in a rock sort of way. May be a bit too far have to play backing things off and on until I get it right.
This setup is beginning to kick *** now, mofo betch! its the bomb!
Time for a proper case for Najda.
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I was doing similar things with my Eminence LAB12 sealed 38Litre. Although not much around 20-40Hz I can boost it a little with a powerful amp. The problem areas are actually closer to 100Hz, so I was playing around with minidsp by adding negative high shelves, in combination with different negative eq curves with high Q, so that the reduction looked like a narrow "V". In total 5 different negative filters and the bass came alive slightly better. Not as much boomyness. I will wait boosting the low end until I recieve a 250W IRS amp.
I think a few of these sealed will make the house shake. But. It is a little boring. It would be fun with an out control vented sub. Maybe I will need higher efficiency speakers for vented to sound good.
Without having heard tapped horns, I have a friend who is not very happy about his old tapped horns. He has almost your midbass horn, Speedysteve. A few cm larger in diameter and with JBL 15".
Since he stopped using the tapped horns, he has tried many different folded basshorns but still has not found the right one. He thinks he will end up with a sealed bass with many drivers, or if that is not enough a frontloaded basshorn. Now he has backloaded horns, which are fun, but apparently not the best. Something about losing energy.
BTW, my friend here likes his midbashorn and see no problem reaching 100Hz with it. He prefers it much better than any vented midbass he has ever heard.
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Pics from a Swedish site. Not my horns. Mine are much prettier... 
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446725.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=415873.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446737.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=456893.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446725.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=415873.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446737.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=456893.jpg
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Looks cool.
Ah proper double or is it triple glazing?...
Lots of incarnations of bass on trial there.
I have visions of the the amp on top of the bass unit vibrating off, but its probably pretty heavy
The tapped horns look quite small? What were they tuned to give / what drivers?
Neighbours below?
Ah proper double or is it triple glazing?...
Lots of incarnations of bass on trial there.
I have visions of the the amp on top of the bass unit vibrating off, but its probably pretty heavy
The tapped horns look quite small? What were they tuned to give / what drivers?
Neighbours below?
Pics from a Swedish site. Not my horns. Mine are much prettier...
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446725.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=415873.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446737.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=456893.jpg
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Looks cool.
Ah proper double or is it triple glazing?...
Lots of incarnations of bass on trial there.
I have visions of the the amp on top of the bass unit vibrating off, but its probably pretty heavy
The tapped horns look quite small? What were they tuned to give / what drivers?
Neighbours below?
Not sure about the paint job.
He used Eminence Definimax, and here is the hornresp simulation:
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=412068.jpg
Does it differ much from your tapped horn?
Not looked at the S sizes in detail but the SPL plot is different in that
mine go down to 22Hz. Size I guess?
Pics from a Swedish site. Not my horns. Mine are much prettier...
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446725.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=415873.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=446737.jpg
http://www.minhembio.com/bilder/hq/?pic_id=456893.jpg
He needs to get that ribbon tweeter off that baffle or it will never sound right. Romy went through about every possible arrangement during his system setup and baffle mounting the ribbon was not one of the good ones.
He will figure it out.
Ooh - hope there is a write up about that!
In the meantime I am trying to solve midbass. I made a replica of your horn in solid pine and last night I finished a Meyer Miko 120 replica with originsl woofers The milo is more neutral and balanced but yes a little more boring and sensible I like them both. I will probably use them both.
My GF said the array make the horns look so small so now I need bigger horns! Okay!Attachments
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Great girl friend!
Nice work on the bass horn. Not going to resonate. Are you making a second one? I found it hard to tell what was what with just one.
I have to apply a little DSP correction on mine for a room mode - forget where 130 or 150Hz I think it was.
I am making a pair of 1.2m long rectangular exponential bass horns at the moment for 15" drivers at the moment.
Be interesting to see how they sound.
Nice work on the bass horn. Not going to resonate. Are you making a second one? I found it hard to tell what was what with just one.
I have to apply a little DSP correction on mine for a room mode - forget where 130 or 150Hz I think it was.
I am making a pair of 1.2m long rectangular exponential bass horns at the moment for 15" drivers at the moment.
Be interesting to see how they sound.
In the meantime I am trying to solve midbass. I made a replica of your horn in solid pine and last night I finished a Meyer Miko 120 replica with originsl woofers The milo is more neutral and balanced but yes a little more boring and sensible I like them both. I will probably use them both.
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Great girl friend!
Nice work on the bass horn. Not going to resonate. Are you making a second one? I found it hard to tell what was what with just one.
I have to apply a little DSP correction on mine for a room mode - forget where 150Hz I think it was.
I am making a pair of 1.2m long rectangular exponential bass horns at the moment for 15" drivers at the moment.
Be interesting to see how they sound.
I am not sure what I will use in them. With horns I prefer 1st order but that doesn't work with 15" drivers unless I find a very nice driver. I have not bought the Eminence 15A yet, and I am very curious how that will sound. I stuck one of the Meyer woofers in there and they had a cool snare drum snap but I could not use them with 1st order. It sounded a bit warped and weird. Hopefully I will not have that problem with the 15A.
Are you making the new horns because you are not satisfied with your current horn?
I would like to use the Milo replicas as a fill in to be sure I have an overall balanced sound and use the horn for added presence. On the right side I have a midbass horn of similar dimensions but with a 4" throat suitable for a Fane 8M. In comparison, the smaller throated horn have more compression and more detail around 200Hz, but I think it has a little too much intensity. The lower compression of the left horn has a more mellow sound to it which I like. Still has a lot detail. I have only tested with 12" and 10" drivers so far. It is almost too mellow. A horn in between would have been nice. I still doubt your midbass horn should be used below ~140Hz. A driver that goes lower will maybe have too much issues with warped sounding bass, I don't know. And a driver that goes deep will have less detail in the midrange. With the Milo filling in the rest I don't have to worry too much how low I should push it.
But the milo does not have that snap!
I will give DSP a go and also get the correct driver. Ultimately I will probably need a larger horn. But what if this warped feeling I get is because low midbass has no business in a horn? I heard from a friend that horns phase shift with the horn, especially with bass, and FIR is the only thing that can correct this. With so much digital correction, a lot of bits of information will be lost in the digital domain. Sometimes it is better to throw in the towel.
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I am making them for someone who does not have length constraints. Will be 1.4m long in driver chamber.
When I modelled the exponential it came out with a smaller throat than I expected. I made them a bit longer so I could try different throat sizes - with some work to change things of course.
I was coming from 1m long conical bass horns with quite a large throat (20cm diameter), and they sounded fine / I had become used to them.
On trying the round exponentials (which modelled better in the upper freq region than the conicals BTW), with the smaller throat I thought they sounded a bit weird. Like you describe perhaps...?
I successively reduced the volume of the driver chamber right down and made the throat larger. This got me the sound I liked from the conicals but I found I had more detail / texture in the upper frequencies.
Trying different driver chamber vols with the conicals was inconclusive.
So, I conclude (oversimplified no doubt,) that the 15" drivers like bigger throats than indicated from the modelling.
I will soon find out if the longer rect exponential horn sounds OK with a smaller throat.
Successive mods to follow should it not.
Horn bass is not in your face in the same way as box bass IMHO.
It is more subtle and textured. Bass guitar, church organ, drum solos sound great to me. There is much detail and speed.
Thumps and bumps and muddy wads of bass that you get from other solutions are not there. I think they take a bit of getting used to - kind of you have to educate your ears to the new sounds. All IMHO of course. It's whatever floats your boat.
I've not gone FIR... I am up to 60% processor load on Najda just with 5 way, and a bit of PEQ on the tapped / bass horns...
I think FIR on 2 lots of bass channels might push it over the edge. I use 96K, 192 no way too process hungry and I did not like the sound, 48K sounded low res.
BTW my wife is Swedish. Nyköping girl. We met in Stockholm (lived there for 4 years and another 6 years in Linköping), before settling in England.
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Yeah, the milos are a little boomy in comparison, but they are also more full and I can play all sorts of music with them, and they remind me of what I heard at concerts, because I probably have heard them at some point.
Just a different type of sound. The horns have attack and detail. Less bass with the drivers that I tested, and the one that had bass, was weird. It's good that you still argue for horns below 100Hz, then I will continue my endeavour.
Just a different type of sound. The horns have attack and detail. Less bass with the drivers that I tested, and the one that had bass, was weird. It's good that you still argue for horns below 100Hz, then I will continue my endeavour.