For a beginner, the documentation and support network for Altec duplexes is very nearly unmatched. That's important.
As for bass... it depends on your standards. The bass that's there is generally excellent. I would say that subs would be a good idea, but a duplex can offer pretty good performance for a pretty good variety of music. Nat King Cole? Almost nothing can touch them. Drum and Bass? EDM? Not so much with the awesome. ZZ Top? They're just fine. P. Funk? Get some more woofers and a subharmonic synthesizer like the Mothership intended.
So, yeah, they're kinda lousy at some things. Everything is kinda lousy at *some* things.
GM,
Thanks a bunch, as it's information like this from your seemingly vast knowledge of all things Altec, that's really hard to come by and especially valuable to the uninitiated. A clarification though; when you say "oldest" up to what vintage 604's are you referring to? I took it to mean drivers up to the "C" designation. Or did you mean the very first ones the 604A's?
picowallspeaker:
I looked up the specs for audax PR 170 MO and it looks like a very good driver for the price however "serious high efficiency midrange at 96db/W/M is open to debate. I still own Lowther dx4"s in Medallion 3 back loaded horn cabinets which are 100+ db/W/m and I consider these to be beginning of " high efficiency " IMHO. While this lowther system sounds excellent on "simple" small scale music it can't do large scale dynamics.
The Altec 604's are MUCH better overall when it comes to dynamics. The audax 6 1/2" driver you mention will sound "small" by comparison. Like many of the people who post here, I had many speakers systems/ amplifiers combinations over the years starting with Bose 901, Dalquist, Vandersteen, Infinity 4.5, various Maggies , Acoustat etc. all were good at the time. I have evolved into making 4 way horn system.
Why horns ?
1. 106-108db/w/m from 70hz to 20,000+hz ( in my case )which allows high quality, low watt, SET amps to be used.
2. Large scale dynamics which " Box " speakers can only dream of.
3. Good selection of high quality compression drivers ( TAD,JBL, BMS and many others )
4. Good selection of horns/waveguides.
5. Use of simple crossovers ( 6db mostly in my case )
6. Fairly easy DIY project--drivers and horns bolt together, make a support frame for the drivers. The mid bass horn can be a problem ( lots of work !!! )but there are plans available.
7. Can be made to sound better and cheaper to build then buying the large, expensive, " audiophile " brand speakers.
Now for the downsides of a horn system: There always is !!!
1. They are BIG by nature. They dominate a room for sure.
2. Require a fairly large room.
3. Can be expensive depending on drivers/horn selection.
4. Low ( possibly zero ) WAF.
However, if sound quality, dynamics, and overall realism is your goal, then a good horn system is almost impossible to beat IMHO.
I looked up the specs for audax PR 170 MO and it looks like a very good driver for the price however "serious high efficiency midrange at 96db/W/M is open to debate. I still own Lowther dx4"s in Medallion 3 back loaded horn cabinets which are 100+ db/W/m and I consider these to be beginning of " high efficiency " IMHO. While this lowther system sounds excellent on "simple" small scale music it can't do large scale dynamics.
The Altec 604's are MUCH better overall when it comes to dynamics. The audax 6 1/2" driver you mention will sound "small" by comparison. Like many of the people who post here, I had many speakers systems/ amplifiers combinations over the years starting with Bose 901, Dalquist, Vandersteen, Infinity 4.5, various Maggies , Acoustat etc. all were good at the time. I have evolved into making 4 way horn system.
Why horns ?
1. 106-108db/w/m from 70hz to 20,000+hz ( in my case )which allows high quality, low watt, SET amps to be used.
2. Large scale dynamics which " Box " speakers can only dream of.
3. Good selection of high quality compression drivers ( TAD,JBL, BMS and many others )
4. Good selection of horns/waveguides.
5. Use of simple crossovers ( 6db mostly in my case )
6. Fairly easy DIY project--drivers and horns bolt together, make a support frame for the drivers. The mid bass horn can be a problem ( lots of work !!! )but there are plans available.
7. Can be made to sound better and cheaper to build then buying the large, expensive, " audiophile " brand speakers.
Now for the downsides of a horn system: There always is !!!
1. They are BIG by nature. They dominate a room for sure.
2. Require a fairly large room.
3. Can be expensive depending on drivers/horn selection.
4. Low ( possibly zero ) WAF.
However, if sound quality, dynamics, and overall realism is your goal, then a good horn system is almost impossible to beat IMHO.
They used to, back in the 70's and 80's in constant directivity designs for pro use. Diffraction horns are not that common today with the possible exception of sound reinforcement speakers, where high SPL's and a wide coverage area are the over riding concerns - not sound quality.
I'll agree with hottatto, in that horns are possibly the only avenue if realism is the goal. If however, you listen mostly to studio recorded over processed and over compressed music, then it really doesn't matter what speaker technology you use.
I'll only add, that horn speakers done properly in order to reach their full potential, are fairly difficult to put together and require a good amount of knowledge as well as patience.
buffedupboy:
I am no 604 expert however my friend swears by 604e model and he has had several other 604 models in the past. I have heard his system many times and it sounds GREAT being driven by custom 845 mono block amps. If your budget allows, go for the " E " model even if you have to wait a little longer.
musical noise:
Perhaps I did over simplify the building of my horn project. I did have lots of good advice from Dr. Bruce Edgar who helped me with the mid bass horn design and the crossover. I went over to Dr. Edgars house and listened to his field coil Titan horn system for several hours ----I was hooked !!! I also have a machine shop and TIG welder which helps a great deal. The mid bass horn took a lot of time and patience for sure, but this is the key to a great sounding horn system.
picowallspeakers:
Just curious---what speaker system do you listen to ? I am always open to new ideas.
I am no 604 expert however my friend swears by 604e model and he has had several other 604 models in the past. I have heard his system many times and it sounds GREAT being driven by custom 845 mono block amps. If your budget allows, go for the " E " model even if you have to wait a little longer.
musical noise:
Perhaps I did over simplify the building of my horn project. I did have lots of good advice from Dr. Bruce Edgar who helped me with the mid bass horn design and the crossover. I went over to Dr. Edgars house and listened to his field coil Titan horn system for several hours ----I was hooked !!! I also have a machine shop and TIG welder which helps a great deal. The mid bass horn took a lot of time and patience for sure, but this is the key to a great sounding horn system.
picowallspeakers:
Just curious---what speaker system do you listen to ? I am always open to new ideas.
Who, me 
Me humble with no great background or frequentation of hifi gear
In these days from one month I listen with a 10" crossed to a 4" with
a waveguide-
Which is a little strange since the 4" is an old Pioneer for car, so 4 Ω
and the woofer still sits in its U-frame and with some of the records
the sound is bass light ( mostly with LP's) and with others ( mostly CDs )
it is equilibrated.
http://s28.postimg.org/koq19ghod/DSCN0138.jpg
Me humble with no great background or frequentation of hifi gear
In these days from one month I listen with a 10" crossed to a 4" with
a waveguide-
Which is a little strange since the 4" is an old Pioneer for car, so 4 Ω
and the woofer still sits in its U-frame and with some of the records
the sound is bass light ( mostly with LP's) and with others ( mostly CDs )
it is equilibrated.
http://s28.postimg.org/koq19ghod/DSCN0138.jpg
Arrggghhh.... spanner in the works! I've read, re-read and even listened to myself over and over again. This obsession is getting ridiculous! GPA tells me that both drivers sound the same, and the E series is more expensive and only exist because many buyers (myself included) just insist on Alnico magnets.
Now, I believe what was just said, but why do I still want the E series?
Also, I've seen certain cabs with BHL, but have been advised many times over that it is not suitable for a 604. If the bass is sometimes lacking and a BHL design can solve this issue, why isn't it done more for the 604 then? I've heard that it results in a very 'boomy' bass?
Now, I believe what was just said, but why do I still want the E series?
Also, I've seen certain cabs with BHL, but have been advised many times over that it is not suitable for a 604. If the bass is sometimes lacking and a BHL design can solve this issue, why isn't it done more for the 604 then? I've heard that it results in a very 'boomy' bass?
Ah, I should have followed this thread closer. Either way, cheers and good luck. I hope you get the same enjoyment as so many others have.
Here's where two of mine ended up (testing stage). Octagon cabs with the holey rears to reduce the boxy sound plus the addition of a helper woofer in a sealed box. Nice combo. Finish comes later. Much later.
Here's where two of mine ended up (testing stage). Octagon cabs with the holey rears to reduce the boxy sound plus the addition of a helper woofer in a sealed box. Nice combo. Finish comes later. Much later.
Attachments
I can't help you there. Bill is honest, and the differences are trivial on most systems.
I've looked at the BLH solution a few times, and there are some good reasons to avoid it. First: both the size and the engineering effort would be exceptionally daunting. Secondly, even a well engineered BLH is unlikely to provide *more* bass. Even a proper 40hz basshorn has size and room loading requirements that make the larger conventional cabinets seem like cute toys. The third issue is that horn integration involves time and phase issues (not to mention coloration) that are much more easily sidestepped with a conventional cabinet. The last issue is that the 604 really isn't made for horn loaded bass. That's simply not playing to its strengths.
In short: It's a whole lot lot of work with very little return in most situations. In your case, you'd probably be looking at huge expenses in terms of modeling and prototyping. That's not a recipe for First Project success.
If you're looking for more or better bass, either corner-load the cabinets or integrate more woofers. That would make a great *second* project.
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